Is the Church of Wells, considered by many to be a cult, sacrificing children at the altar of religious belief?
Wells, Texas, is home to the controversial Church of Wells which many consider to be a cult.
[Lamar Hankins was Thorne Dreyer‘s guest on Rag Radio, Friday, September 12, 2014, on KOOP 91.7-FM in Austin. On the show they discuss the Church of Wells, the death of Faith Shalom Pursley, and other issues raised in this article. Listen to the podcast: on The Rag Blog or at the Internet Archive.]
WELLS, Texas — The death of three-day old Faith Shalom Pursley in Wells, Texas, more than two years ago was a result of child neglect and satisfied the criteria for injury to a child, criminally negligent homicide, and manslaughter under the Texas Penal Code. The latter two charges, if applied to the case, would make the child’s death a form of criminal homicide — what most people call murder.
Faith’s parents — Kristin and Daniel Pursley — and their religious leaders — “elders” in the Church of Wells — decided their religious beliefs took precedence over seeking medical treatment for the Pursleys’ new baby. As a result, Faith died of a routinely treatable condition. The Pursleys and their religious group, at the insistence of the “elders” of the sect (three 20-something young men — Sean Morris, Ryan Ringnald, and Jacob Gardner), chose prayer, rather than the services of a competent doctor, to “treat” Faith’s obvious medical distress.
Faith’s symptoms leading up to her death were reported to the Cherokee County Sheriff’s Department investigators and to Child Protective Service caseworkers. Those symptoms would give a parent of normal sensibilities great cause for alarm. After her home birth, assisted by her father but unattended by any medical professional or mid-wife, the baby would not suckle.
Her father provided the baby breast milk through an eyedropper. The baby slept all night without waking for feeding, or crying — behavior the father reported as “strange.” The baby’s extremities turned a blue tint one or more times. In the hours before death, the baby experienced what the father termed “respiratory distress.” The parents’ response to the respiratory problems was to have “20 or 25” of the Church of Wells members visit their apartment to pray for the child to get better.
According to an eyewitness to the events surrounding the baby’s illness and death, Ryan Ringnald was the “elder” most involved with counseling the parents and directing the decision to seek God’s will in whether to take the baby to a doctor. According to the eyewitness, Ringnald reasoned that God can heal the sick, so they should rely on God to decide whether the baby would live or die. He believed that the baby could die either way — whether they relied on God or on a doctor — so it was better to rely on God. If God wanted the baby to receive medical care, He would let them know, or perhaps would miraculously provide it.
The background of the case
The Church of Wells is a fundamentalist evangelical Christian sect. However, it is not a group that routinely shuns medical care. The parents’ decision to deny Faith medical care was influenced by the strong encouragement of the “elders” of the sect — particularly Ringnald.
Were they trying to prove the healing power of God by denying medical care to the newborn?
Were they trying to prove the healing power of God by denying medical care to the newborn? Were they trying to gain prestige in the evangelical community and within their own group by saving the baby or resurrecting her only with prayer? We don’t know the answers to these and similar questions because the “elders” and the Pursleys have refused interviews on the subject, and they never have been required to testify under oath.
But we do know, based on eyewitness accounts and a Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) report, that, after Faith died, her body was taken to Ringnald’s residence, where church members, scattered throughout the small town of about 800 residents, went by to pray for the baby’s resurrection. This went on for 15 hours, according to my sources and a statement made by Daniel Pursley to the Cherokee County Sheriff’s Department.
An autopsy of the infant’s body by the Southwest Institute of Forensic Sciences in Dallas concluded that the child had been born with a birth defect — pulmonary valve stenosis, a narrowing of the heart valve that pediatric cardiologists commonly treat successfully, often without major surgery.
This case raises several questions: What are the rights of a child (especially an infant) to medical care? May parents be excused from honoring the rights of children if they are following their religious beliefs about the efficacy of prayer over medical care before the child is old enough to consent to foregoing medical treatment?
If parents follow their religious beliefs, are they excused from allegations of criminal neglect when the child dies? Do people’s religious views exempt them from a charge of recklessly causing a death? Should the state take action to protect a family’s other children for fear that the parents’ religious beliefs will again take precedence over medical care if a child becomes ill?
Apparently, in Cherokee County, Texas, a child is completely at the mercy of whatever religious beliefs her parents may hold.
Apparently, in Cherokee County, Texas, a child is completely at the mercy of whatever religious beliefs her parents may hold, no matter how extreme. The right to medical care guaranteed by the Texas Family Code and the right to be free from negligent or reckless parental behavior under Texas law seems not to apply in Cherokee County. I wanted to discuss these and related matters with Cherokee County District Attorney Rachel Patton, but DA Patton refused to return three phone calls over two weeks and finally had her secretary call me to say that Patton would not speak to me.
Patton’s unwillingness to talk about the rights of children in Cherokee County came as a surprise to me because of news reports that praised her when she left the Cherokee County District Attorney’s Office to go into private practice in 2011. Patton was an Assistant DA in the Cherokee County District Attorney’s Office from January 1, 2006, until the end of June 2011. The DA at the time, Elmer Beckworth, praised her for her successful prosecution of child abuse cases. Patton defeated Beckworth for the DA position in 2012. However, child abuse appears no longer to be a priority for Patton.
The rights of children under Texas law
The Texas Family Code delineates the rights and responsibilities of parents in section 151.001: “A parent of a child has . . . the duty of care . . .[and] protection of the child”; “the duty to support the child, including providing the child with . . . medical . . . care”; and “the right to consent to the child’s . . . medical . . . care . . . and surgical treatment.”
In the Pursley case, the child was not properly cared for, protected, or provided with medical care in keeping with the standards widely accepted in Texas, including in East Texas. But the parents’ rights to consent to medical and surgical care were exercised by withholding such care. Kristin and Daniel Pursley have not been held accountable for their conduct surrounding the death of their child Faith, nor have the “elders” of the Church of Wells. That this happened demonstrates a failure of the criminal justice system of Texas more than of the child protective services system.
The Family Code provides that neglect of a child includes “placing a child in or failing to remove a child from a situation that a reasonable person would realize requires judgment or actions beyond the child’s level of maturity, physical condition, or mental abilities and that results in bodily injury or a substantial risk of immediate harm to the child” and “failing to seek, obtain, or follow through with medical care for a child, with the failure resulting in or presenting a substantial risk of death, disfigurement, or bodily injury . . .”
The Department of Family and Protective Services apparently took seriously its responsibility to investigate the death of Faith Shalom Pursley.
The Department of Family and Protective Services apparently took seriously its responsibility to investigate the death of Faith Shalom Pursley. Its investigation concluded that the parents did neglect their child under the terms of the Family Code. There was, in the stilted parlance of DFPS, “Reason to Believe for Medical Neglect of the deceased child” on the part of both the mother and the father. That is, the DFPS found that there was good cause to hold both the mother and father responsible for medical negligence in the death of the baby.
The DFPS provided its report to both the County Attorney and the District Attorney for Cherokee County. At the time the report was completed, the Pursleys had three other children, who were removed from the home by the DFPS and placed for their protection, for about six weeks, with Cory and Ashley McLaughlin (also members of the Church of Wells), rather than with other family members.
Both DFPS rules and state law favor placement of children who are removed from their parents’ custody with other family members. However, if parents agree to a voluntary temporary placement, those parents have the right to decide who will care for the child or children during the temporary placement. The Pursleys chose their friends, and close sect members, Cory and Ashley McLaughlin to care for their children. DFPS found the McLaughlins a satisfactory temporary placement – they had no criminal background, nor had they been accused of child neglect or abuse.
Jacob Gardner was one of three “20-something” Church of Wells elders who insisted that the Pursleys choose prayer over medical treatment for baby Faith.
Because the placement was voluntary, DFPS did not place the children with the maternal grandparents, Karen and Ronnie Dean, though they were available, willing, and able to care for their three grandchildren. Karen Dean had contacted the DFPS immediately after she learned of Faith’s death to offer to care for her three grandchildren, but DFPS failed to explain to the Deans how voluntary placements work in Texas.
Because Kristin had cut off most contact with her parents, following the tenets of the Church of Wells, she was not interested in having her children cared for by her parents. Besides, the placement with the McLaughlins meant that very little would change for her children or for the Pursleys, except where the children slept at night. The Pursleys had virtually unlimited access to their children during the six-week investigation.
Given the communal nature of the Church of Wells, the Pursleys lost no control by turning over their three children to the McLaughlins. Apparently, all children of church members are picked up each day from their homes and cared for together in a common location or locations.
While other records within the DFPS are privileged and not subject to public inspection, it is likely that the Pursleys convinced DFPS that their other children would receive appropriate medical care in the future. According to the Court Coordinator for the Associate Judge who hears child abuse and neglect cases in Cherokee County, there is no record of any court involvement with the Pursleys; this lack of court involvement suggests that the Pursleys voluntarily placed their children with the McLaughlins.
Something else suggests that such an informal understanding about medical care was reached with the Pursleys regarding their other children: during the six weeks that the three children were cared for by the McLaughlins, DFPS caseworkers frequently asked the parents whether they had any reasons to oppose providing medical care for their children. The Pursleys always responded that they had no reservations about seeking medical care for them.
Another event that suggests an informal understanding with DFPS is that Kristin Pursley gave birth to another child on January 3, 2014, at the Woodland Heights Medical Center in Lufkin. But there is no assurance the Pursley children are not in danger if any develop medical problems and the Pursleys decide once again to rely on prayer in lieu of medical care. They got away with medical neglect once without serious consequence, why not again?
The grand jury and possible criminal charges
We don’t know what criminal case or cases, if any, Cherokee County District Attorney Patton presented to the grand jury because DA Patton won’t reveal to the public how she has done her job.
A review of Texas criminal law reveals that the grand jury could have considered at least three possible criminal charges.
A review of Texas criminal law reveals that the grand jury could have considered at least three possible criminal charges: (1) injury to a child, which occurs if a person “intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence, by act or . . . omission, cause(s) to a child . . . serious bodily injury”; (2) criminally negligent homicide, whereby a “person commits an offense if he causes the death of an individual by criminal negligence”; and (3) manslaughter, in which a “person commits an offense if he recklessly causes the death of an individual.”
All three of these charges depend on the mental state of the responsible party — the parents, in this case. The Texas Penal Code defines “reckless” this way:
A person acts recklessly, or is reckless, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he is aware of but consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor’s standpoint.
The phrase “viewed from the actor’s standpoint” refers only to the facts that the actor was aware of, not his religious views or beliefs.
Injury to a child is defined in the Texas Penal Code, sec. 22.04, to include “intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence, by act or intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly by omission” causing “serious bodily injury” or “bodily injury” (emphasis added). Without question, the failure to provide medical care for Faith Pursley was an omission of a duty the parents had.
Criminal negligence is explained in Texas law this way:
A person acts with criminal negligence, or is criminally negligent, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor’s standpoint.
In the case of the Pursleys, there should be little doubt that their actions were completely outside what most people would do in such circumstances.
In the case of the Pursleys, there should be little doubt that their actions were completely outside what most people would do in such circumstances; that is, their behavior was “a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise” knowing what the Pursleys knew. Kristin Pursley had three other children — ages 2, 3 and 4 — when Faith was born. Before the birth of Faith, she had had one or more miscarriages. She was familiar with the medical system. Indeed, neither parent had any objection to modern medical care, but they behaved differently in this situation. The question is “Why?”
The answer appears to be that they were influenced by religious beliefs as they were taught by the “elders” and by the counsel of “elder” Ringnald (and perhaps others) to follow those religious beliefs even when they conflicted with their legal duty to a child. Ringnald’s assertion, made in a conversation with the parent of a church member, that he, the Pursleys, and the other “elders” didn’t know Faith Pursley would die is belied by Ringnald’s alternate assertion that the baby could have died whether they sought medical care for her or instead relied on God to make her well. Clearly, they knew the baby was in medical distress, based on the symptoms reported by her father and observed by many others.
As to the culpability of the “elders,” Texas criminal law includes what is termed “the law of parties.” That provision provides in relevant part that a “person is criminally responsible for an offense committed by the conduct of another if . . . acting with intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense, he solicits, encourages, directs, aids, or attempts to aid the other person to commit the offense” (emphasis added).
Reports of the behavior of the Church of Wells “elders” make clear that they encouraged and solicited (and perhaps directed and aided) the parents of Faith Pursley to deny Faith the medical attention she needed. There is little doubt that the “elders” intended to deny Faith medical care that she needed to have a chance to live. The culture of the Church of Wells includes enormous control over its members by the “elders.”
The culture of the Church of Wells
When I went to Wells in July to try to talk with the Pursleys and the “elders” of the church of Wells, a friend went with me. We went to the church headquarters, the R & R Mercantile store, the closest thing to a grocery store in Wells. I asked a Church of Wells member, Sean Sanders, if I could speak with Sean Morris and the Pursleys. He said he would try to contact them and would let me know.
R&R Mercantile is the site of church headquarters.
While sitting at a table in the cafe section of the store waiting for word about an interview (which I learned about an hour later would not happen), my thoughts were broken by a religious question from the only other person sitting in that section of the store — a young man who identified himself as Cory (later identified as Cory McLaughlin), a member of the Church of Wells. He wanted to know if I believed in the Bible.
My friend asked if his Native American ancestors were all sent to Hell by God and His Son Jesus Christ because they knew nothing of Christian teachings.
During the ensuing discussion, my friend joined us. He is a descendant of the Cherokee tribe. During what became a bizarre discussion, my friend asked if his Native American ancestors were all sent to Hell by God and His Son Jesus Christ because they knew nothing of Christian teachings. Cory assured him that everyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have a relationship with Him will burn forever in Hell, whether or not they have heard the Christian message.
Perhaps the best response to such delusional thinking is found in the words of Seneca Chief Red Jacket, of the Iroquois Confederacy, in 1805. He was responding to a request by a Christian missionary society to proselytize among the Iroquois:
Brother, our seats were once large, and yours were very small; you have now become a great people, and we have scarcely a place left to spread our blankets; you have got our country, but are not satisfied; you want to force your religion upon us.
Brother, continue to listen. You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind, and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost; how do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?
Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?
Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.
Our discussion with Cory was often more of a harangue by the young man, who told us that he graduated from Southwestern University in Georgetown, my own alma mater. He repeatedly told us that we were sinners and depraved, and our souls would be condemned to the everlasting fires of Hell unless we are born again and have a personal relationship with Jesus, who is the only one who can forgive our sins. He frequently would ask a question and not wait for the answer before continuing a religious harangue with ever increasing volume that could fairly be described as shouting or screaming.
Between harangues, we engaged in some back and forth, enough to learn that Cory’s belief in the absolute truth of every word of the (King James) Bible is based on a complete ignorance of the history of the development of the Bible, not to mention the different versions accepted by various Christian traditions. He believes that the authors of the gospels are the people whose names are assigned to them — Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John — although Bible scholars from every religious tradition are virtually unanimous in concluding that we do not know who the authors were of these texts. The names were assigned to the tracts, perhaps hundreds of years after they were written and copied dozens, perhaps hundreds of times by unknown scriveners.
My impression of Cory is that he is a person with few social skills other than manipulation, something my friend and I are simply too old to succumb to. I think we both felt sorrow for Cory’s inability to think critically about any subject we discussed. He is a “true believer” in the sense that Eric Hoffer uses the term: fanatic, zealot, ideologue, “red hot” for the object of his belief (a phrase Cory used to describe himself in a testimony found on the Church of Wells website), propagandist, manipulator, conspiratorialist. But I am sure the group offers some kind of support for its members. Without the group delusion that only the members of the Church of Wells know the truth about God, many (if not most) of the members would undoubtedly be lost.
After listening to some of the sermons and reading some of the testimonies at the Church of Wells website, and conversing with Cory McLaughlin and others, I have no doubt about the sincerity of the “elders” and members of the group. However, sincerity has little to do with child neglect or reckless behavior toward babies, nor is the lack of experience and immaturity of the “elders” in running a commune of 75 to 100 people (along with a half-dozen businesses that provide money to meet the needs of the members) an excuse for inappropriate, inadequate, or criminal decision-making.
Nor is reckless and negligent behavior excusable for the ‘elders’ and members of the Church of Wells because they are ‘filled with the Holy Spirit.’
Nor is reckless and negligent behavior excusable for the “elders” and members of the Church of Wells because they are “filled with the Holy Spirit” or “saved by the blood of Jesus.” They live in a secular society and must be judged by the civil authorities using the same standards expected of everyone, regardless of religious belief or practice. Their “holier than thou” attitude should carry no weight when judged against the laws of the state, but such is not the case.
A religious website, Liberty for Captives, in an article by Stephen Smith, Th.M., explains the culture of the Church of Wells and its relation to the death of Faith Pursley this way:
[The separation of the group from society has led to] an environment of information-control, group-think, and fear of outsiders. Biblical passages are interpreted by the elders without outside input, and church members live in a world where information is filtered through the grid of the leaders’ interpretation. Not incidentally, the elders also place great stake in revelations from God, which in the case of Faith Pursely [sic] led to the decision to pray over the child rather than to take her to the hospital.
The author goes on to explain further:
In the case of Faith Pursely (sic), the elders believed that to avail themselves of medical treatment was a lack of faith, i.e. a lack of spiritual fruitfulness, and that if they believed hard enough the baby would be saved. Their “faith” in God was actually a misplaced sense of duty to believe, i.e., a work they had to perform. This is shown by the fifteen hours of corporate prayer devoted to the child after her death in hopes that God would respond to their great faith and raise the child. As Morris tellingly related in his memorial sermon, “Sadly, we did not have [enough] faith to see the child healed.”
The Church of Wells as a cult
Many have called the Church of Wells a cult, not in an ancient sense, but in a more modern way. I have avoided that label up to this point, but the basic characteristics of cults, first discussed by the sociologist Max Weber and by many others since, especially religious cults, seem apt to describe the Church of Wells: authoritarian leaders, isolation from birth families, exclusivity (especially as to worldview and associations), psychological manipulation and control through shame and guilt and ritual practices, strong opposition to independent thinking, disdain for outsiders who can’t be lured into the group, fear of being separated from the group, group cohesion induced by the fear of persecution by others for their beliefs, and the fear of being disfavored by God and condemned to an everlasting Hell if not a part of the group.
Church elder Sean Morris with wife, Preethi, who keeps a watchful eye on one woman who has attempted unsuccessfully to leave the group.
The Church of Wells is also rigidly paternalistic. All decisions are made by men. The “elders” receive messages from God about who should marry whom, though psychologists might call such messages whims. Generally, members don’t talk to outsiders about the group without permission from the “elders.” Women are not allowed to work outside the group or live apart from the group. One female member who is not married is almost always in the presence of another member, usually the wife of “elder” Sean Morris, Preethi David Morris, apparently out of fear that she will leave the group, something she has attempted on several occasions.
Only women who bring financial support to the Church of Wells through their families seem to have any freedom of movement or independence.
Only women who bring financial support to the Church of Wells through their families — an exception to the circumstances of most of the women — seem to have any freedom of movement or independence from the rigid control by the men of the group.
Cherokee County may well have a serious problem on its hands. If the megalomaniacal behavior of David Koresh manifests itself in the present “elders,” tragedy could befall the group, nearly half of whom may be children. Certainly, the death of the infant Faith Shalom Pursley resulted from an unwillingness of Kristin and Daniel Pursley and the “elders” to allow medical intervention for the baby that likely would have saved her life.
Because the criminal justice system failed Faith Pursley by not holding accountable the adults who controlled her life, the leaders and the group have reason to continue to behave arrogantly about their legal responsibilities and duty to children, all of whom, apparently, are home-schooled. They continue to demonstrate that they have no regard for the psychological well-being of children as evidenced by an incident earlier this year.
Several Church of Wells members were street-preaching during a parade through the town of Wells on April 5. At one point, “elder” Sean Morris and others from the group were yelling near some small children that they (and the adults they were with) were sinners and would go to Hell. At least one parent couldn’t abide this abuse of children and physically intervened. The Texas Family Code defines abuse as “mental or emotional injury to a child that results in an observable and material impairment in the child’s growth, development, or psychological functioning.”
Harangues such as Morris’s are traumatizing to small children. When my 5-year old granddaughter came home from an evangelical indoctrination session at a local day care center a few years ago, she was clearly emotionally disturbed and worried that she was going to Hell, even though she didn’t know exactly what that was. She had been frightened, if not terrorized, by preaching directed at her and her classmates about sin, eternal damnation, and the fiery environs of Hell to which they would all go if they didn’t accept Jesus as their Savior.
We notified the owner of the day care facility about the inappropriateness of the program she had allowed to enter her facility. Fortunately, she agreed with us and has never again allowed the group to make presentations at her child care center. But parents whose children encounter such disturbing ideas in public have few options to stop the abuse.
According to a report by television station KETK, which covers the Tyler, Longview, and Jacksonville areas, Morris denied that any insulting language was directed at children, though he did not deny that there were children present when he and others were doing what the “elders” often do: “We were preaching the gospel. This town is steeped in crime, drugs, and religious hypocrisy and we care about their souls, so we open air preached the gospel message like Jesus did!”
Church elder Jake Gardner in a confrontation at a local protest.
Sean Morris’s claims about not preaching at or to children are belied by the regular activities of the “elders” and church members who go on public school campuses to preach directly to minors. Trespass warnings against Church of Wells members have been issued related to both Wells ISD and Lufkin ISD. Jacob Gardner was arrested in Kilgore because he and three others went to a Christian youth event, sneaked in without paying, and began telling the youth they were all going to Hell and were being lied to. When they were asked to leave, the others did, but Gardner resisted, was arrested, and spent the night in jail.
Based on my reading of the Bible, I don’t remember anything about Jesus shouting at people, especially children.
Based on my reading of the Bible, I don’t remember anything about Jesus shouting at people, especially children, while standing a few feet from them, screaming that they are all going to Hell. This is a technique honed to a less-than-artful form by the “street preachers” among the Church of Wells. It is hard to accept the lesson being “taught” under such circumstances, but it does leave a lasting impression on both children and adults — perhaps horror, fear, or revulsion, or all three.
Misfeasance by Cherokee County public officials
Because we live in a society that values free speech, we tolerate the style of preaching of the “elders” (at least when directed at adults), but we should not tolerate the absence of medical care for children who are within the ambit of the Church of Wells. Those children deserve the protection of the full force of the state and her county officials, but that protection is not being provided. The indifference to the welfare of those children is amply demonstrated by the unwillingness of the Cherokee County District Attorney to even take a phone call to discuss the legal rights of those children.
As I visited with residents and public officials about the Church of Wells, I detected a reluctance by public officials to openly criticize the group out of deference to their claims of being devoutly religious, even though the Church of Wells “elders” and members believe all those who follow other religious beliefs are infidels. People who consider themselves Christians usually don’t take kindly to being called infidels and hypocrites. It both angers and embarrasses them.
East Texas is a vital part of the Bible Belt. Often, if you claim to be religious, that is all that is necessary to establish that you are an upright person, at least for those who are not members of the Church of Wells. Most East Texans don’t like to challenge people about their religious views — as long as the views are Christian-based. So the exclusionary and dogmatic members of the Church of Wells have largely escaped public criticism by most officials in the area.
The public officials I spoke with in Cherokee County don’t want to publicly challenge the beliefs of anyone claiming to be born-again Christians, walking in a special relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. And so they have not insisted that anyone be held responsible for the death of Faith Pursley.
But the same has not been true of many citizens of Wells and Cherokee County, Bible belt notwithstanding. Comments critical of the Church of Wells are common. There is a Facebook site dedicated to opposing the harmful practices of the Church of Wells that has nearly 6,000 followers. Some local ministers pray that the Church of Wells will leave and become the Church of some other place. Other county residents see the group in more sinister terms and are actually frightened by them.
The Cherokee County Grand Jury
The grand jury process in Texas is so secret that all we know about it is that 12 people decide by super-majority vote (nine of 12) whether to indict someone for an alleged crime. All that is necessary is for nine grand jurors to find that there is probable cause to believe that the person violated the criminal law. The Cherokee Grand Jury that served during the first six months of 2014 failed to indict anyone for the death of Faith Pursley. However, we don’t know that DA Patton presented the case to the grand jury, though ABC’s Nightline Prime reported that an indictment was considered, but not returned.
The members of the Cherokee County grand jury that failed, apparently, to indict anyone in the death of Faith Pursley are Sergio Hernandez, Robert Sadler, Lue Ann Williams, Dawn Bauer, Owen H. Seamands, Terry Burroughs, Gordon Cole, Doug Lewis, Jason Wofford, Steven Pate (foreman of the grand jury), W. A. Riza (alternate foreman), Brenda Davis, O. V. Rhodes, and Barbara Ford.
It is a running joke among Texas lawyers that a District Attorney can ‘indict a ham sandwich.’
It is a running joke among Texas lawyers that a District Attorney can “indict a ham sandwich” if she wants to. Prosecutors largely control the grand jury process by forcefully presenting the cases they want to prosecute, and diminishing those they aren’t interested in, or just not presenting them. Since neither the Pursleys nor the “elders” were charged for their criminal behavior, it seems fair to conclude that Cherokee County District Attorney Rachel Patton had no interest in seeking justice for Faith Pursley’s unnecessary death caused by the reckless and negligent conduct of her parents and the “elders” of the Church of Wells. If she had been willing to talk to me, I would have asked about legal accountability in Cherokee County.
Still, another puzzle remains: Law enforcement officials in Cherokee County seem to agree that a crime was committed related to the death of Faith Pursley. After making four requests and clarifications of requests for government records under the Texas Public Information Act, I was denied access to all recordings of witness statements and to all of the summaries of witness statements made by investigating officers because that information is exempted from public disclosure as “information held by a law enforcement agency that deals with the detection, investigation, or prosecution of a crime that did not result in a conviction or deferred adjudication” (emphasis added).
If no crime was committed, the information I requested should be made available. I conclude, then, that a crime was committed, but District Attorney Patton will not hold anyone responsible under the laws she is duty-bound to honor.
But another incident sheds some light on how Cherokee County officials behave toward the Church of Wells. Just after 1 a.m. on May 18, a citizen called the Cherokee County Sheriff’s office to report a possible assault and/or abduction of a young woman. A female, whom witnesses identified as Catherine Grove, a Church of Wells member who has demonstrated ambivalence on several occasions about continuing to stay with the group, was attempting to leave the area of the R & R Mercantile store, walking down Hwy. 69 toward the edge of town, when five men “forced her” into a car, a Jeep Cherokee. One report says that she was “pulled into the car head first” after a 10-minute conversation with the men, during which she repeatedly was seen shaking her head in a manner indicating “no.”
Two witnesses to this incident were yelled at by some of the men. The witnesses, both women, felt threatened enough to quickly leave the scene.
Thirty-five minutes after the report of the incident was made, and after what was essentially no meaningful investigation, the Sheriff’s log indicates that “no offense” was found. No investigative report was ever filed. Catherine Grove’s parents believe that Catherine was trying to leave the Church of Wells and was forcibly — even criminally — prevented from doing so by male members of the group, with the acquiescence, if not the connivance, of Sheriff’s deputies.
From my many years working on both sides of the criminal justice system, including advising two police departments over seven and a half years, the failure to make independent inquiries of those involved in such a situation in an environment that is not coercive to any of the individuals, and in which they will feel safe and supported in revealing their true feelings and the true facts, is not proper law enforcement procedure.
If Catherine Grove was taken forcibly or against her will by the men early on the morning of May 18, as eyewitness reports suggest, she was entitled to protection by law enforcement officials. But the two Cherokee County Sheriff Department employees involved, Sgt. Donald Williams and Deputy Keith Jones, failed in their legal duty to protect her.
Once again, the Church of Wells was treated deferentially by Cherokee County authorities, who seem unable to perform the jobs they were elected and hired to perform. So we are compelled to ask, how many more young women will be manhandled by the men of the Church of Wells before authorities enforce the laws against assault and abduction? How many more children will be emotionally abused by the street preachers from the Church of Wells? And how many more babies will die from medical neglect before state and county officials decide to enforce the laws?
Read more articles by Lamar W. Hankins on The Rag Blog.
[Rag Blog columnist Lamar W. Hankins, a former San Marcos, Texas, city attorney, also blogs at Texas Freethought Journal. This article © Texas Freethought Journal, Lamar W. Hankins.]
Nice work. A couple of thoughts:
1. “…neither parent had any objection to modern medical care…”
Okay then. If these parents have no spiritually-based objection to medical treatment, then there is no legal ground for any sort of religious exemption.
It’s that simple.
They’ve been provided a religious rationale by authorities, when they themselves didn’t initially justify the circumstances that way (as far as I know). This “church” wanted to resurrect the baby after she was dead. They said so.
2. If the parents and their parenting strategies are under the control and authority of unrelated young men identified as “pastors,” those young men are party to neglect. Society and the legal system recognizes the influence of pastors, teachers, bosses, etc.
As defined by Texas Statute, Title 5, Subtitle E ‘Protection of the Child’, Chapter 261 ‘General Provisions’ –
(4) “Neglect” includes:
(B) the following acts or omissions by a person:
(ii) failing to seek, obtain, or follow through with medical care for a child, with the failure resulting in or presenting a substantial risk of death, disfigurement, or bodily injury or with the failure resulting in an observable and material impairment to the growth, development, or functioning of the child;
Something is seriously wrong here. The district attorney’s investigation, performance and decision-making merits an immediate review by superiors.
The state has failed its basic duty and charge – to uphold the rights of children.
In Texas, district attorney is an elected position. DA Rachel Patton needs to be held accountable by the people with recall, expulsion or impeachment proceedings.
http://www.montclair.edu/media/montclairedu/chss/departments/childadvocacy/041913_PPT_Alvarez_Legal-Exemptions-for-Religious-Based-Medical-Neglect.pdf
Great work done here. I’m so thankful for people like you. Please don’t give up. We need all the legal advice/help we can obtain.
Sincerely
Brenda Hubbard
The corruptness running rampant throughout your article has been in Cherokee County for years. Felonies happen and charges get dropped. The D.A. had the nerve to tell my family that we called and dropped felony theft of equipment charges. $80,000 lost and nothing we can do about it. There is our equipment, here is the VIN number, here is the sales receipt (the man who stole it sold it)…
.Those guys know they can get away with murder……so they do.
Dear Corrupt D.A. The theft has nothing to do with the Church of Wells, does it? I just wanted to clarify. And you don’t mean to say that the church members intentionally murdered this child, knowing that they can get away with it, do you? I met the parents of this baby several times, and they are very loving and responsible parents, the Pursleys, you can look at their family picture in their church website (http://www.thechurchofwells.com/contact.html) to know if they are this kind of people….how about all the other children in their church? Can you say with a clear conscience that this was the intent of these blessed parents, or the other church members? Love in Christ, Moses.
I do not think anyone would say the death was intentional. However, it was PREVENTABLE. A drunk driver does not intend to kill someone, however it is preventable if they do not drive. When they do and they kill someone they are held ACCOUNTABLE. The same way we are demanding the Pursley’s be held accountable. Whether their intent was the death of their infant is not what is being discussed and I do not think anyone on here has said they intended the child to die. But, a child is dead and they could have prevented it and did not. It was foolish for them to think all would be fixed by praying. Yes, pray, while your child is at the hospital in the care of trained medical professionals who are saving her life. I honestly can not understand how you can sit there in good conscience and convince yourself if your child was blue in the face you would not seek medical attention and would just wait for God to will it. My child was once choking and my first instinct was to call 911. I did not think God would will the acorn out of his throat. If you feel so strongly that God’s will and only God’s will had a hand in whether Baby Faith lived I ask you then why do they seek medical attention now? Why now and not for Faith? Why did they take the baby with botulism to the hospital? Did they not believe in God’s will to heal that child?
Dear Lorayne, Apparently, Corrupt D.A. does, when he says, “Those guys know they can get away with murder……so they do.”
Love in Christ, Moses.
Well, I think that is stretching his words into something you want it to say. First of all he is making a general reference to CC- not specifically to COW or this case so one can not assume his statement about getting away with murder is directed at The Pursley’s, COW or if it is in fact a general statement about what people in CC seem to get away with.
I do not believe they intended to hurt the child. I personally knew Kristen and she was (is, I assume) a very sweet girl and would not harm anyone intentionally. Tragically little Faith was caught in the middle of a situation I do not clearly understand, and as a new mother myself my heart hurts for Kristen and Faith. I am a strong believer that faith can get you through anything and that God will see you through. I also believe God provides education and growing intelligence- which leads to doctors and medical care. I am sincerely asking, why was there no medical assistance called? I look at my daughter and my heart brakes for Kristen.
I am afraid only your friend and her husband know the true answer to that. Very sad situation.
Thank you Mr. Hankins!
Please continue your research and writing your articles. These facts & your support combined with your gift to write is a Blessing. I am thrilled that you have a voice and ARE NOT afraid to use it. Thank you for holding this group, their members and the Cherokee County Officials accountable. Maybe sometime you will include in your future articles:
1. How many of the parents who have adult children lost to this group ALSO are being MANIPULATED by this group)
2. Hold the parents who are supporting this group ACCOUNTABLE.
3. Shed some light on Catherine Grove requesting to be taken to a Women’s Shelter in November of 2013 as seen on Nightline when Dan Harris spoke to Captain John Raffield of Cherokee County and how he DENIED this young woman her opportunity AGAIN for FREEDOM by not taking her to the shelter.
4. Follow the MONEY…where and WHO is backing this group -could it possibly be some of the parents who have children in this group?
5. How do these young people live (are they on government assistance when they are highly educated and NOT disabled)?
6. Who pays for all the car insurance, registrations and inspections (what name are these cars being registered under in the state of TX when so many members are from out of state)?
7.Enlighten us on the AFFIDAVIT that this so called Church had Catherine Grove sign.
8.Where and what happened to members who got out and their experiences while being in the Church of Wells.
9.Write about Ashley McLaughlin and why she has physically left this group (lives in Houston) and her husband Cory – Is she still involved? Ashley has a child with Cory and another on the way not to mention she is STILL friends with ALL the members???
10. Explain why parents of children in this group HAVE NOT ever been to Wells, TX to help save their children.
11. Shed some light on Pastor Courville of Springfield, MO (his daughter is Joy Ringnald and he married her and Hannah Gardner to their husbands, Ryan Ringnald & Jacob Gardner (Elders)
II look forward to your “Series” of articles on the Church of Wells. Thank you Mr. Hankins for your TRUTH!
Wow. Fantastic article. Very well researched. Thank you for shining a light on this. Many have covered the story but none as well as Mr. Hankins. His informative, take no prisoners journalism is exactly what this issue needs. I hope it will spark more inquiries and more investigation into the group.
Great post, keep up the great work Lamar.
This story needs to be sent to Sen. Ted Cruse and Congressmen Jeb Hensarling.
Stay out of peoples business that is NOT yours
Threat, Aly???????? Why is it YOUR business since you, too, choose to stay anon? Part of this cult and you cannot think for yourself or stand behind your threats out in the open?
All the cults I hear about are based on some kind of godly message that, not surprisingly, the “elder” men get to have women….more than one, usually. It’s just more destructive patriarchy. Certain men are always the Owners. Women and Children are always the property. Most, though, are set up well away from a community to avoid attracting undue attention, so the Church of Wells is different in this way. Let’s hope planting themselves inside the city of Wells will prove to be their undoing….that and the public death of an innocent.
Great article. I still can not believe that DCF has not stepped in and taken those children out and that the parents of Faith was NOT found guilty and punished. I have been following the abduction of Catherine Grove who left to join this group for a year now…. she ran away only to be returned to this cult group in Wells Texas by the police instead of returning her to her parents where she wanted to go. It is just unbelievable what Catherine’s parents have been through and the fact that they will not let her see or talk to them is flat out wrong. No where in the Bible does it state that parents and their children should be separated and that the children were not allow to talk or see their parents. If anything the Bible teaches love and respect the parents and others…. this group is totally out of control and should be force to shut down before there is another Wacko or Jonestown incident.
Dear Evelyn,
You may see the photos of the Pursley family and their children in the link: http://www.thechurchofwells.com/photo-album.html to decide for yourself, if these dear children should be robbed from their loving parents. I have met the Pursleys on several occasions, and found them to be very responsible and gentle parents, who care much for their children. I was not present at the time of Faith’s death, but I cannot imagine these parents to be negligent in their calling to care for their baby! I am also grieved by the statements concerning Catherine, who loves her parents, and is praying about how to interact with her parents, who have come against her church family with aggression. Catherine told me that she is free to contact her parents, and is not being prevented, or manipulated to cut off communication with her parents. Catherine is committed to honoring her parents according to God’s will, and I hope and pray that the relationship between her parents and her will be restored fully with the peace of Lord Jesus Christ. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses, if your baby was blue and not feeding and suffering from respiratory distress would you pray or seek medical attention? Very simply question. Answer honestly.
Dear Lorayne, My first default should be prayer, and as the Lord leads according to His perfect will, be willing to use medical help. Some trust in chariots, and some in horses, but we trust in the Name of the Lord our God. Love in Christ, Moses.
And you don’t find it the least bit concerning they said God would resurrect this child? have you yourself seen God resurrect someone? Does that not concern you in the least?
Dear Lorayne, God is able to resurrect, even your soul from death, for what is not possible with man is possible with God. Love in Christ, Moses.
Come on now Moses. I will not argue about your soul, however do not insert words into the discussion that are not part of the original topic. I have learned from reading your other replies this is what you do to help it make more sense and ultimately change the meaning of the conversation. They did not say they were praying for Faith’s soul to be raised. They believed the CHILD would be raised.
“Concerning the place that we’ve sinned as elders and as a church after that child died we believed it was God’s will that the child would be raised,” said Morris
Lorayne,
Moses is obviously a Church of Wells member. It is best not to engage them.
Oh I know very well who he is. He is Preethi Morris’ dad, she is married to leader Sean. And yes, I know it is futile, but I think it is important to clarify anything he puts out there.
Moses,
Your comment is a little ridiculous. You cannot look at a photo of a family and make that determination. Serial rapists, Serial Killers, Pedophiles… They often take seemingly normal, beautiful family photos.
I am in no way implying that the Pursley’s are any of the above.. I have known them for over ten years.. prior to the brainwash period.. So, I can say that I personally do not liken them to any of those groups I described.
However, for those who do not know them.. You directing them to a photo to make a determination is ridiculous.
Dear Tasha, You can tell by the joy, peace and contentment in the children’s faces…..the countenance of the children defeat the slanderous accusations against the Pursley and the Church of Wells families. Love in Christ, Moses.
Ha….I am sure Susan Smith had pictures taken with Joy Peace and Contentment also but she drove her kids into a lake strapped into their seat belts. I am sure Andrea Yeatts also had similar pictures but she drowned her kids in a bathtub. In no way am I saying or implying The Pursley’s would do either of those things to their beautiful family. I am saying you can not look at a that picture and tell jack. The children’s faces don’t say anything about their parents. Stop the nonsense Moses.
Please don’t take Moses comments seriously. The man has no brains. The church of Wells and all the others who claim that the Bible ( a book written by people) is the “Word of God” should be ignored. When I pointed out Numbers 31 17 and told Moses that no God would ever say that he called me ” demon” . He cannot defend numbers 31 17 though.
Dear Mr.Hankins,
I am blessed and privileged to know the members of this church, who are devoted to their calling to serve their Lord an Savior Jesus Christ with all of their soul, all of their mind and with all of their strength by the grace of God. These young people have raised up a standard in this nation to establish what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ. The church members including Catherine love their parents, and are praying for their salvation or backslidded state. I have personally met Catherine several times, and she has told me that she has the freedom to contact her parents using the phone which she carried with her. She, in fact has called and spoke to her mother some time back, and she is seeking God’s will in how to interact with her family. The elders are encouraging her to maintain contact with her parents according to God’s will, and obviously do not want to force it upon her. The men in the church work very hard with their hands doing many types of work including cutting trees, in the lumberyard, in the chicken factory, in grocery store, in landscaping, etc. Married couples are in committed God-centered marriages, and are raising up their children in Godly ways, and protecting them from the sin and wickedness of this world. They live in humble means, forsaking the treasures of Egypt to be with God’s people. They are committed to honor their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and willing to take up their cross to follow Him without any reservation. They love people enough to share the Gospel with them, and suffer persecution as a result of that. They have become a reproach to many people because of the stand they have taken to follow God’s ways as described in the Bible. I am blessed to have these young people in my life, I LOVE THEM IN CHRIST!
Peace in Christ,
Moses David
Thank you for your insight. The Church of Wells members have never forced Catherine Grove to do or not do anything. She is years into adulthood. Where is the Groves’ home church and why are they so silent? Where are the Groves? They all but lived in Wells until they drug their mentally ill daughter into the mess.
You’re misinformed. The Grives didn’t bring their ” mentally ill” daughter into this mess. The Jacksonville Daily progress did. Ben Tinsley put her in it by hounding her for an interview.
Dear Anonymous, Catherine is a fine young lady, who loves her parents and her family. She is simply seeking the Lord’s will in how to interact with her parents in light of their aggression against her desire to be with the people whom she loves at the Church of Wells, who have become her family in Christ. May God move in the hearts of her family to accept God’s will for Catherine, instead of coming aggressively against her, and the Church of Wells. May God open the eyes of everyone, to come on the side of Truth. Love in Christ, Moses.
No aggression with men pulling her head first into a vehicle at 1 am during her SECOND attempt to leave the group. Sounds like a family in Christ to me. And her parents have not become aggressive against her, their concerns are against the Church of Wells and the men leading it, The same men pulling their daughter head first into a car at 1 am while she is trying to flee. Which she admitted herself. And you wouldn’t be just as concerned if you heard Preethi had tried to leave and was PREVENTED from doing so?
Dear Lorayne, I don’t believe this account is true. Does someone have a video recording or some other proof of this? I was present many times when Catherine was with the church people, and she had complete freedom, including when Catherine went with my wife and I to another house. I have observed her to be quite comfortable with the church people, and I did not sense any aggressive behavior like you are describing. Love in Christ, Moses.
Yes Moses, there is proof. A 911 call slip from the witness and her mother who called it in. Call slip states the female was forced into a Jeep Cherokee and they had to leave the area because the males were yelling at them and coming at them in a hostile manner. I think one thing you should not ignore is the actions of the COW when you are not around. Jake Gardner getting arrested in Kilgore after sneaking into and not paying admission to a youth event, Richard Trudeau getting arrested for threatening his ex, this call to 911 of men forcing a women they identified as Catherine into a Jeep Cherokee. When Catherine was questioned a few weeks ago she admitted she had tried to leave.
Dear Lorayne, As you know. the church has many enemies, instigated by a handful of parents. Anyone can make a 911 call to make a false accusation, just the call itself does not prove that this happened. During our daughter’s wedding, there were two fake phone calls to the police, stating that there were terrorists at the wedding, and that a man with handgun was planning to kill people. The police are frustrated with fake phone calls concerning crime committed by the Church of Wells. The truth is, there is no crime committed by the church members. Love in Christ, Moses.
Interesting you chose to only address what you want to judge as a fake 911 call when you were not even there basically calling the people who called liars. The caller has been interviewed and stands by their statement. I find it disturbing you are stating the caller is lying. You have no grounds to do this but you do. It is frustrating you will defend COW for actions when you were not there and accuse good, honest people who made a valid report of what they saw liars. Do you even read what you write? And then for you to conveniently not even address the arrests that have been made! What you going to say those were fake also, brought on by enemies? I truly feel for you and the pride you have for the COW when you have been given fact based proof. You just refuse to see it. I’m not going to argue with a fence post anymore. Support what you want.
Dear Moses, I think you have entirely disregarded the message of this article. But what I gather from your comment about how the elders are encouraging her to maintain contact with her parents according to God’s will speaks volumes. Just as the elders told the Pursley’s to seek God’s will for the newborn. We all know how tragically that turned out. So you see, while you can certainly pray about matters, you can’t simply expect God to tell you when to call your mom or dad or that it is time to take your child to the emergency room. Those kind of things are not willed by God, they are choices you should make as a individual person. Or should be able to make without the influence of 3 men who are telling you to wait on God’s will. God does not just speak to the 3 of them. This article is not about Catherine contacting her parents or not, it is about the death/murder of an innocent child. Would you still defend them if it had been your grandchild that was not taken to the hospital because your Son-In Law did not feel it was God’s will? I will hope and pray that with the loss of Preethi’s baby she did seek medical attention and they did not wait around for God’s will to be sent to the elders.
Dear Loraine, I did not comment about baby Faith because I was not there at that time, and do not know the details about what happened, but I have shared my own personal experiences with the church members, so the reader can have the opportunity to see a different picture of the church members that is not portrayed in the article above. I met the Pursleys on several occasions, and have been blessed to meet such a Godly couple, who love their children, and care for them dearly. In the prayer meetings, the church members are broken and contrite in spirit, often weeping for the salvation of their family members. Regarding Catherine calling her parents, it is the desire of the elders that Catherine called her parents. Many parents are disappointed with the present lives of their children because they have forsaken the pleasures and riches of this world, and therefore are unable to reconcile with the changed lives of the family members, who are simply following God’s will in their lives. This creates conflict for some parents because it is not aligned with their expectations for their children. If they truly looked to God in faith, they would be content in God’s plan for their children, who have been called according to His great purpose, to raise a standard for Christian living in this dark and evil age, where professing christians are living immoral lives to their own shame, crucifying the Son of Man over again by their brazen acts of immorality. The only solution to all these problems is found in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, who has overcome sin and death, and is seated the right of God The Father, interceding for every person who has put his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. May we all look to Him in this time of great need, or, we will all perish, damned for eternity in a place called HELL, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Like the wise man who built his house upon the rock, we need to build our lives upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and His Word. Love in Christ, Moses.
“Many parents are disappointed with the present lives of their children because they have forsaken the pleasures and riches of this world…This creates conflict for some parents because it is not aligned with their expectations for their children.”
How do you know? Seriously, is this something you could actually know personally about individual families, parents, adult children? How could you know?
Your statements are generalizations. Not accurate empirical truth. You could not, in fact, genuinely know this. Even about one family; much less speaking for a group of families. Even if you knew them. And you don’t.
This is just fluffy generalizing GodTalk and expressing your own thoughts. What _you_ think. You can’t really speak to what _other people_ think. You cannot be a mouthpiece for others. How could you?
Certainly you are comfortable and happy with this. Why wouldn’t you be? It’s your religion and beliefs, too. You and your daughter and your new son-in-law all share a common culture. We can all understand that. Good for you.
You’re allowed your opinion, like everyone else.
Dear Guest, I have heard this from the children of the parents, and at least from one parent regarding the disappointment of giving up her nursing education. In the situation with my own daughter, she finished her PhD in Nutrition/Neuroscience, submitted her thesis, and left for Wells, TX without completing her final defense. I would have been thoroughly disappointed had the Lord not been on my side to establish the right priorities in life! Thankfully, the Lord has taught me that following His will is more important than worldly pursuits. Love in Christ, Moses.
This is a common way of speaking. A faux pas. Hyperbole and exaggeration.
“I have heard this from the children of the parents…”
In order for these statements to be true and for you to be able to accurately and reliably genuinely _know_ this the way that you say it, you would have to have spoken in-depth with every single parent of every single adult child involved with Church of Wells. And, each parent would have to be
a.) disappointed
b.) in conflict
c.) upset from ruined expectations.
This is not the case. Can’t be. Every family is different. Each set of circumstances is different. Each adult child is different, even the married couples.
And you do not know what these other human beings think and feel.
You are making statements that it’s not possible for you to know.
You should only say what you actually know, not what you speculate. And not what sounds a lot like ‘party-line propaganda’. Yes, of course, you think this. You _want_ to think this. Doesn’t mean it’s true.
From her own writings, all your daughter wanted was a masters. She didn’t want to disappoint you. She was attempting to live up to _your_ expectations.
That’s _your_ story. Your thoughts and perspective is limited to your own family and experience.
What other parents are feeling and thinking is different. That’s a fact. Other parents miss the big adult people who used to be tiny people that they raised and lived with. That they laughed with and took care of when they were sick. That they bought prom dresses and tuxedos for. That they celebrated the passage of life with. People they looked forward to spending many more family moments, Christmas dinners, birthdays and vacations with. Births of new babies and summer barbecues.
Church of Wells has taken that away. Church of Wells and its three leaders have decreed that the practice of religion and how you go to church, what time and to what degree one prays, will be the yardstick by which all else is measured. The leadership weighed and measured people’s families and found them wanting.
This is okay for you, Moses, because that was your lifestyle to begin with. That’s your yardstick as well. You’ve made no changes.
After a few months of very natural angst, you came to realize that Sean Morris and his “church” will work just fine for you. You like it.
That’s okay. Just don’t speak for anyone else. You can’t. And don’t speak for God. You can’t.
Dear Guest, I think you are right…I shouldn’t have said, “many parents” without knowing for sure how many. Based on the reaction of some parents, and the feedback of their children, I think that this must be true of at least some parents. I would be delighted to know if this was not the case. There is no more blessed thing than to serve God without anything else coming in the way, yes, including things like proms, birthday parties, Christmas dinners, vacations, etc. Taste and see that the Lord is good, above all these things. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses does your family celebrate Christmas?
It isn’t about a prom or a party, is it? It’s not about an entertaining frivolity and a dress, is it?
Here’s what I said:
It’s about family life. Moments. The pride and joy. The swell of emotion. Even the difficult trying times. It’s about the sense of belonging and safety and comfort of loved ones.
Dear Guest, We think that we are entitled to certain privileges in life including “family moments, Christmas dinners, birthdays and vacations, births of new babies and summer barbecues.” but these do not take precedence over a person’s answer to God’s call, because, if we are not right with God, nothing else matters. That is why Jesus said, “seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you” So, it is a matter of priorities, and yes, family times are precious and God ordained, but not at the expense of a right relationship with God. Love in Christ, Moses.
You know absolutely nothing about anything, “Moses”. Your words are those of an ignorant fool. How anyone could stand around “praying” over a cold, blue, dead newborn baby whose health issues were deliberately IGNORED not only makes them sick, but criminal, as well. That baby was used as a prop. Your church “elders” actually believed that they could somehow resurrect that helpless newborn so they and her parents, ALLOWED her to die. You say that you were not there at the time. Those who were should be mortified at their own behavior! If that can be allowed to occur by your so-called church members, what are they capable of doing to an adult? We can only imagine.
Is this Moses posting or someone else? I’m confused. You also keep spelling my name differently making me wonder if Moses is doing all the replies or is someone else also speaking on his behalf?
David Moses you need a kick in the ass. I only wish you would allow me in your little group of idiots so I may show you the wrath of a real good fearing man
Dear Anonymous, Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones ~ Proverbs 3:7,8
Love in Christ, Moses.
No, Be not wise in thine own eyes and get a dying newborn baby medical help because that would be the WISE and COMPASSIONATE thing to do.YOU were only trying to put on a show to prove that you could bring a baby back from the dead. FAIL. HUGE FAIL. ENORMOUS FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!! Fear the Lord and depart from evil. Excuse me, what was done to baby Pursley WAS downright evil, definitely not a depart from evil!!! It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. Ummmm. NOPE, definitely did NOT work out that way, now did it Moses David? YOU LET THAT INNOCENT NEWBORN DIE FOR YOUR OWN SELFISH REASONS, YOU ABSOLUTE FOOLS. YOUR GOD WILL MAKE YOU PAY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES. We cannot wait to see your cult break apart, piece by piece. THAT will be a glorious day, indeed.
I appreciate hospitals a lot. However it is a fact: Many people die because of mistakes made in hospitals by doctors and nurses. Going to a hospital doesn’t mean you are guaranteed life. Humans are not that powerful. Just something to remember to keep this all in perspective. Also interesting that they could have actually killed the baby in the womb and some would call that legal and fine. Maybe the same people who are so condemning about what happened! I hope not. The important thing: baby Faith is safe with the Lord! May we all strive to attain that blessed state someday. By the way, I’m not affiliated with this family or church at all. Just felt like a few words might be helpful. Wendy
Dear Anonymous, To answer your question : “Where are the Groves ?” The Groves are working and back at their regular lives back home in Arkansas praying that justice will be made for the criminal actions of the men of the Church of Wells as so excellently laid out and exposed in this lengthy well researched article by Texas Attorney Lamar Hankins. Where is our home church ? Our home church is behind us all the way. Our home church is not silent. Our Pastor has written a blog about this horrible tragic family destroying group of men leaders and hundreds and thousands of our friends from our home church from our hometown from our workplace are on the facebook page praying for justice to come sooner than later. We have been back to Wells many times since November twice this summer with Catherine’s other siblings. The emphasis of this article is not on Catherine Grove but on the criminal activities of the Church of Wells. So to answer your question the Groves are still here. We have never left. We may not be able to physically stay in Wells since our home is in Arkansas but we keep all members in our prayers and work with many to bring awareness to the group. Thank you for asking. While we appreciate everyone’s concern about our daughter we ask you to help keep the focus of comments to the issue being exposed and that is the failure of the law to hold those responsible for a murder.
Mr. Hankins article is about the Criminal Activity of the Church of Wells, and the Law Enforcement/Officials of Cherokee County…PERIOD!! It is an EYE OPENING read for all! The investigation and article by Mr. Hankins is something that EVERYONE should be thankful for. It is ABSOULTELY all of our business to know these FACTS. I would say the Grove Family are VERY present.. if it were not for them taking a FIRM STAND against this group and fighting for their daughter no one would even blink at the Church of Wells. Being held ACCOUNTABLE is something that this group and the Cherokee County Law/Officials are NOT accustomed to. Mr. Hankins has done an EXCELLENT job holding them accountable through his research and his article. I agree that the men of the Church of Wells work hard – they work hard at BREAKING the LAWS, GODS WORD, Members Spirits and Souls, Parents hearts and the Family Unit. The Cherokee County Law/Officials are not protecting anyone EXCEPT those that MURDER & COERCE! FACTS are FACTS and it is the HARD TRUTH!
It’s too bad Texas doesn’t have an Attorney General type of office that could do something about ignorant and arrogant jacklegs like these 20-something “elders”. Idiot power-tripping harbingers of others’ dooms.
Well now, it seems that moses david and anonymous are members of COW; that is what the church of Wells
is referred too as, here in east Texas. If not members then they are misguided souls; but then the elders of cow patty church are dangerously sanctimonious; look the word up boys it defines you and your actions very well !!
Dang, Lamar, you put your foot in somebody’s pie, didn’t you? Good work; keep us informed!
Couple of thoughts: I’ve never been to Cherokee Cty, but am familiar with other out-of-the-way counties where corruption has a clear role in criminal and civil justice. These are throw-backs to the “good old days” of white paternalism in general, and the views of extremist, “divinely inspired” religious groups aren’t so very different from those of the guys running the show. Rurally dominated Texas counties are pretty hospitable to cults; it’s only the Feds who took a dislike, for example, to D Koresh.
Any sign that the CoW is stockpiling guns? Is all their bullying and control just through isolation and screaming? Not that bullying isn’t an effective technique for control, but the Feds don’t get involved in bullying cases. (Not yet, anyway.)
Maybe the County DA over there really isn’t neglecting her duty, though. If the CoW is a corporation, she may just be following the Supreme Court’s decisions that the religious beliefs of a corporation trump those of individuals.
On a serious note, it’s worthwhile to examine what attracts people to leaders like these wet-behind-the-ears “elders.” While many individual factors no doubt come into play, I would submit that the general failure of our public schools to teach rigorous logic and reasoning bears much of the fault.
I was never exposed to the formal rules of logic except on a random and haphazard basis until I took Philosophy 101 on a whim as a transient student; it changed my life. Charisma may take a charlatan far, but if his or her prey is able to reason clearly and to examine arguments critically, they are far better fitted to escape Charlie’s clutches.
“Maybe the County DA over there really isn’t neglecting her duty…If the CoW is a corporation, she may just be following the Supreme Court’s decisions that the religious beliefs of a corporation trump those of individuals.”
I see what you’re getting at. But, no. “Church of Wells” is not a registered corporation with a Texas business license. Charity Enterprises, Inc., is.
And, that particular ruling has nothing at all similar to this. No comparison.
No corporation has immunity from a death of an infant. They would be _more_ responsible, not less, if they were complicit in an infant’s death. Or even simply present.
An infant died. The parents’ actions and decisions are in question. Not a corporation. Not a church. It’s up to the parents to point a finger at the group’s leadership and say, they demanded I do this. I was afraid if I didn’t.
Dear Mariann, My wife and I stayed in one of the elders’ home for three days….it was the most peaceful home that I ever stayed in….Ryan Ringnald and his wife Joy were a blessing to us….they showered us with God’s love and welcomed us into their home, even though they did not know us before that. Their children are so sweet, and we enjoyed playing with the children! The atmosphere in the house was very peaceful and quiet, we woke up in the morning to the sound of hymn singing by Ryan and Joy, we heard the two of them praying in their room, and being Godly, loving parents to their children, who are very sweet, disciplined children. They live in humble means, growing vegetables in the garden behind their house, and the house is open to all the church members at any time. Mr. Ringnald is a might man of God, spending much time in prayer, with a great burden for lost souls. I am blessed to know these people. By the way, I did not find any guns and ammunition in their houses….they are simple, God-fearing people following the ways of the Bible!!! Love in Christ, Moses.
You’re talking about young babies. Babies.How disciplined would you expect them to be?
How were the parents able to be praying loudly alone in a room? Where were the babies? Or are they so “disciplined” that they know to be silent and need nothing while parents are at prayer time? Does the two-year-old take care of the infant?
Dear Guest, There is a holy sobriety in the home, in which the children learn to stay calm during prayer, not perfectly always, but for the most part they do, and I was very impressed by that! Love in Christ, Moses.
I certainly hope ‘not perfectly’!
How does a newborn “learn” to stay calm? Or be cognizant of prayer time?
You did not find any guns and ammunition in their houses? Were you snooping around for the hidden arsenal before or after you decided to eavesdrop on your hosts inside of their room when you heard them “praying”? What do you think that people are really dumb enough to leave their guns and ammo just sitting out on the coffee table just like they would be dumb enough to admit that they ALLOWED that baby to die??
Dear Anon, God is their Protector! Praise God that He even uses the police and law enforcement agencies to give the innocent protection from the violent, wicked and evil people of this generation. Love in Christ, Moses.
Oh so now it is The Lord, God who is somehow using police and law enforcement agencies to protect COW members. WHO was protecting Baby Faith from the “innocent” members of your cult??? Allowing an innocent newborn baby to die a painful death at the hands of a bunch of ADULTS is both VIOLENT and WICKED and EVIL. But that argument does not suit your pure inability to think or reason for yourself, now does it, “Moses”. Such nonsense you spew. You should be ashamed of yourself.
And “Moses”, is it possible that the police and law enforcement agencies who are “protecting” your poorly veiled church are more interested in their own financial interests in “protecting” your cult than hearing from God that they should? Money talks, as they say…
Moses,
I was not aware that “Godly” men who are Elders of Churches LIE to Law Enforcement about women that they have never met. Would you like for me to post the written records of Ryan Ringnalds LIES that I have from the Cherokee County Sheriffs Department? If I am not mistaken I believe several of these members have told HORRIFIC LIES about your wife as well…Moses REAL “GODLY” men DO NOT LIE, DO NOT HARM WOMEN, and make sure that their own wives have a loving relationship with her parents )Joys parents have NEVER been to Wells, TX and that I know because Pastor Courville (Joys Father) told me himself! They DO NOT have a relationship with Joy or their grandchildren. Moses, I am not sure why you don’t just pack up and move to Wells, TX…could it be that you are NOT willing to give up your “WORDLY” possessions or your “MONETARY” Means?? Are you possibly funding or giving “Love Donations” to this group? How does such a “GODLY” man as yourself allow men to speak so rudely about his wife?
Wow, I think that’s the most comprehensive hard-hitting article I have read yet about COW.
And taking names!
Please keep up the scrutiny Mr. Jenkins!
May the downfall of COW be swift!
And COW, go post your propaganda elsewhere. No one cares for your hot air.
And don’t reply to them people!
Don’t feed the trolls!
It is isn’t it!!! Well researched, fact checked and truthful! I surely hope people listen!!!
Were you looking for guns and therefore did not find any? What an odd statement.
Moses, I am flustered by your comments both here and on the Liberty for Captives site. Because you agree with the elders and COW they are nice and respectful, sweet and humble. I have seen many videos and heard eyewitness account to the contrary. You turn a blind eye to the sin of pride they exude as well as the lack of honor for their parents not to mention children that have been abandoned and left behind. This is inexcusable! Parents have tried to communicate and have a civil relationship with their children but if we are not willing to sell everything and move to Wells and have our “hearts examined by their elders” we are not “right with God”. I know this from personal experience. If I were to say that “yes COW is THE remnant church and I need to go there to be saved” then the communication would be different. But I will NOT sell out and support their miss use of scripture just to have communication with my deceived child!
Dear Flustered, Righteous judgment is not to be forsaken. You can be assured that the church members do not judge in pride, but in love, because they know what the Bible teaches about unrepentant willful sin, which is a damnable sin with disastrous consequences. Most people will tell you that things are fine, but the church members judge things according the Word of God because they love. Other people, who look good on the surface by telling others that everything is fine, are like the hypocritical Levite or the priest who crossed the road to the other side pretending that they either did not see the injured man, or justified their inaction because of various reasons. Don’t judge a man by his outer appearances, but please humble yourself to see the truth in what they are saying, or if you do not want to hear them, at least humble yourself before God and His Word and examine your present standing with God. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses knows what’s happening here, and no, he is not “delighted” to be corrected. He isn’t interested at all that families and loved ones are purely worried about adult children and grandchildren and confused by their decisions.
He refuses to recognize and acknowledge that it is entirely reasonable to wonder what’s happening when adults believe they must move to a Texas town and live communally with a group under the authority of three young men. Even though he felt that way himself.
He disingenuously pretends that a bunch of parents are “disappointed” that their children have chosen a modest humble Godly lifestyle, instead of becoming rich doctors, lawyers and engineers. That ambitious parents’ expectations for their children has caused rift and rejection. He likens this to his own expectations that his daughter Preethi was destined for a brilliant career as a neuroscientist.
No, Moses. That’s not the case at all. And you know it.
Most parents want their children to live content satisfying lives and be healthy and happy. Whatever their career choices are. That grandchildren be well-cared for and nurtured. Basic needs provided and education supported, so that the children have tools and skills to make their way through life.
Nothing much hard to understand here or even very complicated. A bunch of young people believe that Sean Morris is a prophet and that God told him that they must withdraw from their families and loved ones, cease all activities and relationships, and live in Wells, Texas, in order to be Godly and to ensure their salvation as real Christians. Something Sean calls “salvifically saved.” That anything else is wrong. “Worldly.” And so on and so forth.
But then there’s this tiny contradiction that festers like a splinter – Moses still has a relationship with his adult daughter. Even though they haven’t moved to Wells to live this life. No explanation for why this is. We’re left to surmise and speculate about why their daughter Preethi hasn’t cut them off. The most reasonable short answer is that Moses’ religion and beliefs are close enough to be acceptable.
Perhaps Moses and his wife and family at this very moment are busy getting rid of their wordly goods and selling their home to move to Wells. But why do that? If he condones the exit strategy these young adults have employed at the urging of the three young men “elders” and believe the same doctrine, then why not just pack one bag and walk out the front door headed for Wells and leave it all behind? God will provide, right? Or are you waiting for your patents or retirement plan or some other worldly thing like that.
No straight talk. No explanations. No answers. Just sort of enigmatic magical-thinking deflective talk. Goofy rather accusatory statements that parents don’t understand. Yes. That’s quite right. Families do not understand. And Mr. David’s involvement doesn’t clear anything up.
While we’re wondering and guessing, I’m going to guess that Moses made a substantial financial love offering to Church of Wells, thereby ensuring a continued relationship with his beloved daughter.
No, Mr. David, it is not God’s blessing that families should be split up. It is not God’s way to force humans to isolate themselves from good healthy loving relationships. Actually it’s quite the opposite. Read the Bible.
Dear Guest, Have you seen the recent pictures of the church members and their families? Have you seen how happy the children are? If you knew how well the parents take care of their children in God’s ways, you wouldn’t be accusing them of all these things. Nobody told me to sell everything and come to Wells. They are least interested in financial benefits from the heathen like the rest of the false churches scattered across the nation. The most important thing on their mind is the salvation and maintenance of salvation of the souls of people. Righteous judgment is a very important aspect of their ministry. Sadly, this is absent in virtually all churches because of the deceitful, man-made doctrines which provide security to people practicing willful sin. You are right that families should not be split up, that is why the parents should respect God’s call in their children’s lives and be subject to the Godly rebuke of their children, because their children love them in the Spirit. Love in Christ, Moses.
I beg your pardon. What “accusations” are you reading into my comment? There are none. Zero. No accusations of any nature.
Please answer specifically and clearly. I will explain any confusion.
Dear Guest, In your statement, “Most parents want their children to live content satisfying lives and be healthy and happy. Whatever their career choices are. That grandchildren be well-cared for and nurtured. Basic needs provided and education supported, so that the children have tools and skills to make their way through life.” you are implying that they do not take care of their children, which is not true. Also, your support of the main article which portrays the parents as murderers is the accusation for which you will hold yourself accountable before Almighty God, who is a consuming fire. Love in Christ, Moses.
In the statement: “Most parents want their children to live content satisfying lives and be healthy and happy. Whatever their career choices are.”
I am not implying any such thing. These words do not mean Church of Wells members take poor care of their children.
Context
These words refer to parents of adult children who have been recruited to Church of Wells.
I have corrected you about what those parents might think. Our exchange and communication has been limited to this. I have offered no opinion on the separate topic of how this group takes care of children.
You said:
I disagree. I do not believe this is true or accurate. It doesn’t make sense and it isn’t possible for you to know this for 65 different adult individuals and their parents. Most of whom you have not met. So you wouldn’t know what they think.
You have explained Church of Wells members rejecting their families and friends, cutting off relationships with loved ones, in these terms. That it’s because families are disappointed because the adult children have forsaken pleasures and riches of this world, and that this creates “conflict” regarding “expectations.” You framed it in the context of your own expectations and disappointment about your daughter’s unfulfilled PhD.
You know what you meant and what you were thinking. So do I. The communication was clear. You said you would be “delighted” to know this was not the case.
This is what you said and this was my response to that.
You’ve changed the subject and are applying this statement to some other idea that we didn’t discuss.
One more time. You are speaking in generalization for other parents like yourself, as well as for the adult children who joined this group. You say that conflict is because parents’ expectations are disappointed. You say this because the adult children that joined this group told you that. Except that I don’t believe ALL 65 Church of Wells members DID tell you that.
You are wrong. You are speaking for a number of human beings that you cannot speak for, nor do you know what they think. I’ve corrected you and rationally and reasonably defended clearly how it can’t be accurate. You are not delighted. And now you are changing it to mean something else.
English is not your first language. I admire and respect bilingual skills, so this is not a criticism, but an observation and even an excuse for you. You’re to be forgiven if you’ve misunderstood.
“ESCAPE” by Carolyn Jessop is a MUST READ This is a TRUE Story and experiences of being raised and living in the FLDS. It is a Sad and Frightening account of so MANY things that parallel the Church of Wells. How this group lived by a higher law, how obedience and submission among women was required, law enforcement would not help (they were part of the FLDS) the extreme behavior, how the group leaders would make rules but also manipulated them to their advantage, how men would treat the women and children in barbaric ways, how the “Power of Inspiration” God could act directly through these men and then it would be considered alright, how the women were told when they were worthy enough they would receive certain rewards, how the women needed to be in “Harmony” with their husbands or they would be shunned and mistreated by ALL in the group, TV, radio, movies were off limits, children being made to home school – Well-educated children might one day think for themselves…an account of MIND GAMES, CONTROL, ABUSE and how this young woman survived within this group until the day she “ESCAPED” with her 8 children. EAST TEXAS IS IN TROUBLE….how is it possible as a Society that we are NOT able to stop this? How is it possible that Wells, Jacksonville, Lufkin, Alto, Tyler etc -East Texans able to continue on KNOWING that this type of ABUSE is right in the area? How is it that NOBODY is DEMANDING as a GROUP that Law Enforcement, FBI get involved and make this STOP. How is it possible that the Parents of the children in the CoW ARE NOT circling, walking, calling authorities as a UNITED TEAM to have their children and grandchildren extracted and these elders STOPPED!! Read “ESCAPE by Carolyn Jessop and I bet you might just change your mind!!!
Accusing who of all what things?
Dear Moses, I ask you these questions straight forward. And if all you say and write is true then you will answer them honestly.
1. How much money did you, your family, and/or Preethi bring, donate, give to the Church of Wells?
2. Do you agree with Preethi’s latest blog about Chris Faulkner being a false profit?
3. Why do you think the other parents whom you have not met are not godly people and what basis are you judging they are not on speaking terms with their children? Are you speaking on behalf of those parents simply on the basis of what the children or elders say or have you met them and feel the same?
4. As someone who has been face to face with your daughter and others, I find it terrifying that she and others who do not know me, have never met me, have not spoken 3 words to me yet she looked me in the face and determined I was not worthy or saved. How Christian is that? How judgmental was that? Was it my shoes? Was it my clothing? Was it my what???
Looking forward to your Honest answers and not some talk around the bush. If all is well as you say then put it out there, you have been asked so what harm is there is telling the truth. In love and prayers, Lorayne.
Moses let me add one more….
Where are all the other parents speaking so highly of these elders? I could understand if it was 25-30 parents joining you and 1-2 screaming how horrible this sect was, but can you not open your eyes to see you are standing alone? The majority of the parents, the majority of the good, honest, God fearing, Christian world, and the Street preachers who once shared the streets with the likes of these boys ALL have joined together that things are NOT OK. Are you really that blinded by the desire to keep her in your life. Of course you are, I have a daughter. I would go to the ends of the earth for. Are you doing more harm than good? Are you just their wonderful spokesperson since no one else speaks up? Kind of makes you wonder….are you being used? Those boys are talented. Did you get taken in by them and their charismatic charm?
Dear Lorayne, By God’s grace some parents have established a relationship with their children, instead of cutting them off for sharing Christ with them. You have to realize that Christ is everything to them, therefore they will look at every relationship through the lens of God’s will in the relationship, which includes honoring their parents. In as much as it does not affect their relationship with the Lord, they should and must honor their parents, and in as much as the Lord gives me an opportunity, I will share this message with them. I am confident that the elders want the members to honor their parents as long as it does not affect their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Loraine,
1. How much money did you, your family, and/or Preethi bring, donate, give to the Church of Wells? Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.” John said in 1 John 3:17-19, “But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.” so, I would be hypocritic if I saw a need and did not help! Jesus also said, “But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.” Though I was blessed to give, the Lord knows that it was small. I am also blessed that God moved in Preethi’s heart to give to the church.
2. Do you agree with Preethi’s latest blog about Chris Faulkner being a false profit? Those are strong words! I love Chris, and am hoping that he will come to complete repentance for the praise and glory of His Great Name. Preethi knows and understands the complete details more than I, so she is entitled to her opinion.
3. Why do you think the other parents whom you have not met are not godly people and what basis are you judging they are not on speaking terms with their children? Are you speaking on behalf of those parents simply on the basis of what the children or elders say or have you met them and feel the same? You are right that I do not know many parents, but I know their children as Godly people, who know their children more than any of us, so I support them in their righteous judgment of the parents so they will not perish for eternity, and will encourage the children to maintain connection with the parents according to God’s will.
4. As someone who has been face to face with your daughter and others, I find it terrifying that she and others who do not know me, have never met me, have not spoken 3 words to me yet she looked me in the face and determined I was not worthy or saved. How Christian is that? How judgmental was that? Was it my shoes? Was it my clothing? Was it my what??? I do not know the circumstances in which she judged you, so I cannot comment. I pray that your conscience will be clear before Almighty God who cannot be resisted. Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Loraine, God is the Provider of the Church of Wells, not man! By God’s grace, the church members work very hard with their hands to support their families for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. They are in committed marriages and raise up their families in God’s ways, and spend much time in prayer and fellowship. They are a blessed church, serving God in good measure according to God’s will. They are not perfect people, but they strive to be perfect, even as the heavenly Father is perfect. God will not leave them as orphans, nor abandon them. He will more than adequately take care of all their needs according to His good pleasure. Love in Christ, Moses
Moses….you do not know the circumstances in which she judged me? Interesting choice of words considering..Matthew 7:1-5King James Version (KJV)
“7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
I find it interesting to question 1 you would not reply to a simple question. Why are you not willing to share what you have given in tithe to the Church of Wells? It is not something to be ashamed of. So please, do not dodge the question with scripture, simply answer the question.
Moses said “By God’s grace some parents have established a relationship with their children, instead of cutting them off for sharing Christ with them.”
So you are stating it is the parents who have cut off their children? I find that difficult to believe. Considering many parents would love to share Christ with them, except they are not given the chance. When are you going to truly see these are wonderful Christian people who serve the Lord daily and would love to do that with their adult children and grandchildren. But they can not because the elders have judged them. The only parents (you and maybe 2-3 more) that are allowed to have a relationship with their children are the parents who see everything the same way Sean Morris does. Do you not find it terrifying he alone has determined and judged these individuals? Do you not find it concerning you daughter writes in a blog but does not reference people to the Bible, instead to her husbands book? That sounds like she is putting her husbands book above the word of the Lord. Sean Morris has written his own set of rules that these families are Judged by, as you are aware in the Doctrine of Familial Judgment. And you wonder why these good, Christian families question this sect, when they have a leader who writes his own doctrine for judging families? How can you not see this?
Do you agree with Preethi’s latest blog about Chris Faulkner being a false profit? ”
Moses said “Those are strong words! I love Chris, and am hoping that he will come to complete repentance for the praise and glory of His Great Name. Preethi knows and understands the complete details more than I, so she is entitled to her opinion.”
So Preethi is entitled to her own opinion about Chris and you respect that, but the parents and many other respected people in the Christian community who have expressed an opinion about the “Church” the elders and the death of Faith are entitled to one? You seem to argue with everyone else about their views on the group but don’t have a problem with Preethi expressing her own entitled opinion about a great guy who left the group because he no longer agreed with the ways it was heading. Hmmm.
Dear Lorayne, This passage is not teaching not to judge, but not to judge when a person has a glaring fault in oneself. There is a place for righteous judgment when the person is abiding in God’s Holy Spirit. For example, Paul says in 1 Cor 2:10-16, But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
The Church of Wells has an excellent method of accountability within the church. During one of my trips, one of the elders was rebuked by the other two elders about something which was taken very seriously by this elder. If anyone is practicing willful sin, he/she is not allowed to be in fellowship with the others, so this authenticates their righteous judgment because of the accountability that is inherent within the church. All of this appears to be strange to many people because they are not used to this type of functioning within the church, and yet, this is how the New Testament church functioned. Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Lorayne, The church members are open to rebuke by those who are presently progressively working out their salvation with fear and trembling. They do not claim that they are perfect. They have approached remnant Christian leaders whom they respect for a dialogue, being open to correction, but sadly, these leaders have cut them off. The church members are not some proud people like you are imagining…..they weep a lot, and are in subjection to one another, broken and contrite in spirit. Love in Christ, Moses.
Yes, Moses we have all seen the recent pictures. May I ask, since this was your comment above…
“Married couples are in committed God-centered marriages, and are raising up their children in Godly ways, and protecting them from the sin and wickedness of this world.”
Why is Corey standing alone in these new pictures you keep referring us to look at? Where is his beautiful family, with what I understand a child on the way?
Dear Lorayne, Corey is dear man of God, who would die for his wife, Ashley, this is the love he has for her. The church is praying for Ashley to be reconciled to her husband and return to her. He is waiting for her patiently and loves her dearly. Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Lorayne, Have you ever met Corey? He is an amazing man of God, mighty in power, humble, lowly and contrite in spirit. He is a blessed man, God will not forsake him, even though life is very hard for him without his wife, he is longing to take her back. Love in Christ, Moses.
Yes I have. He is a very talented young man and I hope he joins his wife in Houston.
Wow you are really going to justify them and how righteous they are by saying to look at photos? Didnt you just say in one of your other posts that we shouldn’t judge by outward appearance? Do you know how many pictures of happy families I have seen when I know there is trouble in the home from abuse to alcoholism etc etc. I’m sure people aren’t going to take their family photos when they are crying etc. Looking at photos to determine family life and how they are treated is absolutely ridiculous and does not prove anything.
Moses David:
This is irrational. Reading an article and communicating thoughts does not equate to accusation. This is a reflection of a rigid self-defined religious belief system.
In my world, God is not a consuming fire. Confused angry controlling people are.
No. It isn’t. The concept of higher power is comfort and succor to the soul.
Dear Guest, Matthew 5:2-8 “2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”
Moses:”I am confident that the elders want the members to honor their parents as long as it does not affect their relationship with the Lord”
One wonders how honoring their parents which is a commandment from God with a promise attached would affect their relationship with the Lord. It seems to me that it would affect in a positive way as they are being obedient to His commandment. They use this excuse in communication or lack there of all of the time. (Lord willing I will text you. If the Lord allows I will answer your question) and weeks sometimes months go by years for some families. This is not honoring. I have sent e mails and texts and have not gotten a hint of an answer and the communication was just to say “I love you and I am thinking about you and praying for you”. To be ignored by your child is hurtful and dishonoring. If Preethi treated you Moses like our children have been taught to treat us you would be disillusioned at best!
Dear Truth Seeker, I like your name. As the Lord provides the opportunity, I will encourage them to honor their parents to keep in communication with their parents. I do not know the circumstances in which your child is choosing to communicate with you. My suggestion is that, if your child communicates with you, please be open to listen to your child, and be prepared to honestly deal with any righteous judgment against you…believe me, this is done in love for your benefit. If you are a keen listener, this will change things for you. In my case, a man of God whom we greatly respect counseled us to be quiet and listen to them, and honestly be willing to repent of any sin that might come in the way of having a right relationship with God. If it is an outright claim that you are not saved, I plead with you to humbly examine your heart in light of God’s Word to see if you are deceived into false christianity, which is the case with most christians, who profess faith in Jesus Christ, but their heart is far from Him. What is more important, to prove that you are a christian, or to be right with God? I humbly plead with your to become right with God either way, to confess of any willful sin as a genuine believer, or as a professing counterfeit christian who needs a “born-again” experience. You are blessed to have a family member who loves you enough to righteously judge according to God’s ways. This is true love, like that of the good Samaritan, who recognized the true condition of the injured man, and walked a mile to take care of him. Your child is being the Good Samaritan to help you! Love in Christ, Moses.
“For when one says, ‘I am of Paul,’ and another, ‘I am of Apollos,’ are you not mere men? What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.” — 1 Corinthians 3:4-7
God’s call is respected. For some families, even an exciting honor. Always an honorable thing. Why do you somehow imagine this not to be the case? Is there something in your own background, your own experience, that colors it negative?
Very few parents ever expect to be subject to the rebuke of their children. And to be rejected if they don’t accept it.
Do you rebuke your parents, Moses, and how have they handled it? Do you call them evil and unrepentant? They’ve visited from India and your children seemed to have a relationship with grandmothers and aunties, so you haven’t forbidden contact with them and cut them off. Why not?
It’s a natural process that one gets to a place where one doesn’t rebuke adult children. Much.
Dear Guest, You are right, this should not be the case that children rebuke their parents. This should happen by the elders within your church. Do you attend church? Have the elders in your church held your spiritual condition of being eternally significant, above anything else? Have they spoken to you about deep spiritual matters to make sure that you are in a right relationship with God? Sadly, this kind of righteous judgment is not happening in the modern churches of today. The love of many has truly become cold. Churches have become religious institutions, or social clubs, without any meaningful spiritual acccountability. In the absence of any meaningful spiritual authority over the parents, the children are doing the difficult thing to use righteous judgment over the parents because they love you, and do not want to see you perish in judgment by a righteous God, who is also merciful. All that the children want is for their families to have a right relationship with God. I plead with you to lend an open ear to what your child wants to say to you, and be honest before God to be reconciled to Him. Love in Christ, Moses.
You have so little faith in God, Moses.
“For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding.” — 1 Corinthians 10:12
Dear Heavenly Father, “I believe, help my unbelief!”
Exodus 2:11-12
And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
Numbers 12:3 ( (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
Dear Moses. Thank you for your answer. Any communication from my child has been truly one sided. I listen to my child and they talk. I can say I listened with an open heart., I find it offensive when listening to “testimonies” on the church site that admonish and basically dishonor their parents. I have heard my child’s testimony many times and he has not done this to me. I have never heard any testimonies like this from any other church before. Very hurtful and dishonoring!
Dear Truth Seeker, Thank you for the times that you did listen. Please be patient, and examine yourself in light of God’s Word. Most people would say that you are fine, but your loving child is concerned for your spiritual welfare. It is a sobering thought to know that your child is correct, and others are wrong. Humble yourself in the sight of God, and ask Him to show you where you need to repent. If God shows you some sin that you need to repent of, please do so without delaying. God will give you peace when your sin(s) are forgiven through the blood of Christ. The best way is to acknowledge your sin and be reconciled to God. Love in Christ, Moses
How do you know that most people would say this anonymous person on the internet is fine? How do you know their child is concerned for their spiritual welfare, when you don’t know who they are? How do you know their child is correct and others are wrong? What others? Who?
If Preethi’s father is finished rebuking on behalf of Church of Wells, perhaps we could take it back to the question of responsibility for the baby’s death.
The baby was sick for three days. She wouldn’t nurse, the most common of bad signs to watch for in a newborn. The parents say they have no issue with modern medical care. Then why’d the baby die?
Dear Guest, “So and So was sick for so many years, continuing in willful sin, She wouldn’t nurse (from the pure milk of the Word of God) for so many years, the most common of bad signs to watch for in a person. The church elders say that they have no issue with the true church of God. They why did so and so die (forever, to be cast into the lake of fire)?” We have the elders of the Church of Wells righteously judge the spiritual health of people, and every one has so much of a problem with their righteous judgment! Why is that? Love in Christ, Moses.
You know what, Moses? After reading your latest comment, I am now convinced that you are certifiably evil AND crazy!!! Time for YOU to do some very serious soul-searching as you spout your vile diatribe to those who know better. You are a disgusting human being and I am sure that God will find his own special way to deal with you and your cult “elders” someday. How dare you not even have sympathy for that poor, defenseless, sick baby. May you never have to suffer in the same way that she was FORCED to in order to try to fulfill the deluded fantasies of some evil, deviant egomaniacs!!!
Dear We See Through You, Baby Faith is in God’s hands, not those who are rejecting the pure milk of the Word of God, and in dire spiritual health, who need to be taken to the spiritual doctors who will do spiritual treatment (righteous judgment) on them lest they perish and die, judged forever in a place called hell, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hebrews 4:12,13 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.” Love in Christ, Moses.
“Moses”-you keep telling yourself whatever your little heart needs to in order to sleep at night. I believe that Baby Faith is finally safe with God, but what about the other helpless children who have been dragged into this cult? How many of them will be ALLOWED to die by these monstrous adults?? You can throw bible verses around as much as you would like to, but the facts surrounding this poor baby’s unnecessary death should haunt YOU and her parents for the rest of your lives.
Do you really want to know? It doesn’t seem like it. Are you asking a real question? Or just arguing for argument’s sake?
Moses used to read Jonathan livingston seagull
Now he has turned into a horrible elder seagull
Perfect analogy. Love it.
Could “Moses” be Sean himself?
Well, that was my point above where my name was spelled different ways and one time Moses replied to me under the name anonymous instead of Moses so who knows. I know some of the individuals in the group have fake fb profiles set up. Interesting if all that Moses says about them were to be true why do they need to set up these fake profiles and even follow along on social media sites like PFCG? But we know it’s all fluff and they preach out the side of their mouth condemning who they want but doing the same thing. Don’t watch television, it is evil, here get on the internet instead. My patience has expired with replying to him so I won’t anymore. He ignores the questions he knows he has no real response to or that if he did truly answer the question it would not look well on the COW.
Cory condemns you, even while he gives credit to Jesus.
“Many parents are disappointed with the present lives of their children because they have forsaken the pleasures and riches of this world…This creates conflict because it is not aligned with their expectations for their children.”
First the rationalization for isolating themselves from parents and loved ones makes it their families’ doing. That parents have rejected their adult children because of lifestyle choices and forsaking material wealth. And of course, this doesn’t explain why friends and other relationships (grandparents, aunties, buddies) would also be rejecting them. Does it?
Then it becomes about “righteous judgement.” And this is the real truth of it. It’s quite clear and obvious that parents and families have not rejected their adult children. Not at all! Quite the contrary.
Church of Wells leaders cleverly insert a ‘red herring’, a false argument, a diversion that takes the conversation somewhere else, away from the patently transparent strategy of isolating recruits and direction to sever ties with family. Isolate themselves. Change phone numbers. Leave in the middle of the night.
All ‘voluntarily’, of course. Except that the recruits wouldn’t just do that. They are told they must, in order to follow that path. That families will interfere with their spiritual growth. And worst of all, that having a family will result in being doomed to Hell. That they cannot be ‘born again’ and genuinely really ‘saved’ if they have earthly relationships outside of the “remnant” that exists as Church of Wells.
It’s no different than the old-school technique of giving children ice cream cones and scaring them to get their parents to come to church or they’ll all burn in hell.
When family members express alarm, anger, concern, naturally freak out a little bit, it reinforces and confirms that the conversion instruction must be right! That their families are trying to stop them from being saved.
Then it slowly transitions into “righteous judgement” and “love.” It’s a new different phase. Comfortable and safe with their own salvation and secure in their place in Church of Wells, they are no longer fragile probationary recruits, but full members and expected to get with the mission. “The most important thing on their mind is the salvation and maintenance of salvation of the souls of people.”
Who’s salvation and souls? Well, everyone. The planet. By this stage, they’ve fully accepted that families are poisonous; that they would be “unevenly yoked” to enjoy any kind of companionship outside of Church of Wells and they don’t even want to anymore. They’ve suppressed organic emotion and affection and probably genuinely cannot care. The human necessity of belonging is fulfilled by Church of Wells and they’ve fully adjusted to the regimen and life routine of the group.
It is their job. That’s what they exist for.
The more they do it, the more reasonable it seems. They’ve lost discernment and discrimination. It’s probably not even personal anymore. They have so indoctrinated themselves by isolation and elitism, they no longer really recognize other people, even family. The Church of Wells culture is the only thing legitimate and real, intellectually or emotionally. It’s about survival now; maintaining the status quo and obedience, staying out of trouble, not being rebuked and chastised. Avoiding the possibility of rejection in this group.
And then we get to the heart of it:
There it is.
Three men – Sean Morris, Ryan Ringnald, Jake Gardner – and their inner circle of cohorts – deacons and the Charity Enterprises, Inc. board – are the ones judging parents and families. They’re giving direction. Your adult children are just obeying the authorities.
The reason it seems so bizarrely heartless and cruel, awkwardly impersonal, is because it is! These men don’t know recruits’ families and loved ones. And they don’t care. It’s not personal. It’s superficial, a business/church model, a means to what they want. It’s actually not about you. They just need to keep your kid.
If you listen carefully to what your children are saying to you, you will recognize the odd impersonal quality. It’s generic sentences. It’s a script they’ve been given and learned well. This is a fear-based philosophy and a fearful environment. They might not experience it as conscious fear, but fear and anxiety permeates every fiber of their existence. Fear about obedience, salvation, righteousness, wickedness, and most important to them – persecution and attack from the outside, both physical and intellectual. There is no safety (God causes lightening storms and rains down punishment), everything is risky, and no one loves them.
Prayer is how they calm their fears and suppress anxiety.
Now they’re moving into the next phase of church-building. The first generation of babies born into the group. The Seed.
I think a statement on Preethi’s blog can really help shed some light on why Moses is so adamant about defending and protecting Sean and the rest of COW.
And the LORD has given me a husband who is ever filled with the Holy Spirit….words cannot describe the presence and love of the LORD Jesus Christ with him! He is my lord and master…how I need Christ in Sean to be saved!
Does this mean that Preethi’s own salvation depends on Sean’s spiritual health? I’ll also assume that the “lord and master” is in reference to Sean since she did not capitalize LORD as is her custom.
Go see for yourself: http://proclaimedfromtherooftop.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-letter-to-family-and-friends.html?m=1
At the end of the day, what we have here in this forum is an impasse reached by arguing logic with those that are illogical. Even as fellow Christians (though they disagree) we are operating in completely different world views and speaking different languages. Moses and the rest of those who support COW are so far entrenched in their own fear-based fantasy that reality, truth, and common sense fall upon deaf ears.
What’s worse is that Moses and the rest of COW already have a programmed (out of context) scriptural response to my above statement. If I were a betting man, I’d wager on 1 Cor 2:12-16 and perhaps a sprinkling of John 14:17 and 1 Cor 1:18-25. Am I right? Moses and COW, I’ve saved you the trouble – let’s skip the KJV grandstanding and talk like adults. After all, a lot of us have been dancing this dance for 3-4 years now. Also against the claims of COW, a lot of us concerned family and friends are indeed right with The Lord, walk with Him daily, and know the Word.
I am drawn to a George Carlin quote: ‘Never argue with an fool. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.’
Moses, consider this a hard rebuke. I’ve read this entire thread multiple times. You have left a lot of questions unanswered in regards to the death of Faith, addressing the Pursleys’ decision to wait for the child to be resurrected (no matter how “loving” they are in person), and your relationship with Sean and financial support of COW.
Moses, I encourage and challenge you in the name of Christ to go and examine yourself and why you are hesitant to address provide answers to fellow brothers and sisters on this forum. You are a man of God and this should always be prepared to give an answer to those that ask.
It’s your move.
A question for the boys at COW patty church; Have the elders given serious consideration to an increasingly widespread theory ? That Jesus Christ, Son of God. is the child of Alien Beings! Mary wife of Joseph, was a virgin.. Just who impregnated her womb ? Was it an Angel ? From where did this Angel come, from a planet far away? Where did Jesus ascend too after he was resurrected ? What was the light in the sky, was it a spaceship ? This is not an idle deranged query !
Dear Wakefield !!, Please read this passage:
Romans 1: 18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
One can’t believe everything you read.
Moses
One of the core issues with the CoW is about “Authority”. Exactly where do you or anyone associated with the CoW get the Authority to issue Righteous Judgment? You expect people to just accept and trust that the CoW does Righteous Judgment with Love. You miss the point. They don’t have any authority to perform Righteous Judgment in the first place.
They are self appointed authorities. God did not delegate this authority to them. They appointed themselves. That is a clear example of their sin of Pride. That is a clear example of their sin of Blasphemy. That is a clear example that the CoW are being deceived by Satan. This was and still is Satan’s sin. The sin of Pride leads to the sin of Blasphemy by robbing God of the Authority that belongs only to God.
If you believe that you can lose your salvation for the unrepentant sin family idolatry or slander, then you must certainly agree that you will lose your salvation for repeatedly being unrepentant of their sin of Pride and Blasphemy. Why is their own sin of Pride and Blasphemy ignored?
Let me explain:
– All authority comes from God.
– God delegated authority to each Old Testament prophet by speaking audibly to each prophet and speaking face to face with them.
– God delegated authority to Paul by speaking audibly to Paul and speaking face to face.
– God delegated authority to Jesus by speaking audibly to Jesus at his baptism.
– Jesus delegated authority to the disciples by speaking audibly to them face to face.
You see, each person that has received a unique special authority from God gets it face to face and audibly and they can tell the story.
The Bible does not actually give the authority the CoW claims that they have to issue Righteous judgment that belongs only to God. And after hundreds of hours of material and hundreds of comments by you and other CoW members… No one has yet been able to explain how they got the authority. This truly makes no sense. Even if someone did not believe Paul’s story about his audible, face to face experience with Jesus, he still explains it. Even if someone did not believe Moses’ explanation about the burning bush, he at least has an audible face to face explanation. No one from the CoW has ever provided an explanation for how God gave them an audible, face to face delegation of authority that belongs only to God.
God has also structured authorities on earth. Additional proof that the CoW is being deceived by Satan is seen in how they flip the authority of the parents and the children. Where did this idea come from that the children can issue Righteous judgment on the parents? That is not how God designed the authority structure. This upside down authority structure came from Satan.
Look at your own life: God’s designed authority structure means that you should have respected the authority of your New Life church. You had an authority problem and pride problem and refused to respect your churches God ordained authority with their members. Your rebellion caused you to step outside of their authority. In a huff, you stormed off and decided you would be your own authority and you started your own church. Within 3 months, you find yourself in the awkward position where your daughter claims that she cannot submit to your authority. Then somehow your daughter becomes the authority and you begin to submit to her authority. God did not design this authority structure. It came from Satan.
Look at the CoW elders’ lives: Their reputation consistently reveals they have authority problems with every church they worked with, so they start their own church and become their own self appointed authorities. They continually have problems respecting authority even to this day. It is all fine as long as they don’t have to submit to someone else’s authority and as long as they believe they are submitting to God they think they are fine.
The problem is that God knows full well that submitting to human authorities isn’t always easy. But God designed human authorities anyway. It is only Satan that wants to destroy the authority structure God has designed.
God has not delegated his authority for Righteous Judgment to the CoW. This is the sin of Pride and Blasphemy for them to claim this authority.
There are numerous Bible tests for True and False prophets. One of them is that a True prophet does not have a reputation of having unrepentant willful sin of Pride and Blasphemy.
The CoW has a reputation of repeatedly having unrepentant willful sin with all 7 of the sins that God hates.
Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things the Lord hates.
There are seven things he cannot stand:
17 a proud look,
a lying tongue,
hands that kill innocent people,
18 a mind that thinks up evil plans,
feet that are quick to do evil,
19 a witness who lies,
and someone who starts arguments among families.
There can only be one source of their Doctrine, which must be from Satan. Satan is the destroyer of families. Satan’s sin is Pride and Blasphemy. The CoW is known for the same fruits that Satan is known for.
I think you will appreciate this Micah68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3g9LRoTlk
I’m sorry It wouldn’t post – it’s a song written by Judy Rogers – Seven Awful Things (you can search YouTube)
Dear Micah68,
Merely being a physical parent does not give me the right to have spiritual authority of my grown up child, just as being a mere religious authority does not give right to have spiritual authority. In the case of Preethi, I was resisting God’s will in her life by listening to the unrighteous slander of deceived Christians, and false prophets alike. Thankfully, by God’s grace, He showed me this sin, and I repented of it. The religious leaders (elders) of New Life Church did not visit our home even once in our 23 years of our attendance and 18 years of service there to find out about our spiritual condition. The only time they did visit was during our final months of our stay there when they were trying to pacify us of our accusation of the heretical teaching of Free Grace Theology as practiced by Zane Hodges that had creeped into the church. During our time there, most children who grew up in that church are in the world, rather than walking with God, many of them have forsaken their faith. One young lady shot herself to death, another young man shot himself but did not die, another man’s suspicious cause of death was not disclosed, and yet, at the funeral, the message of “all is well,” was given. Fornication was rampant, many women dress up immodestly. Most elders spend more time in the world in vacations and entertainment rather in shepherding the people in the church. There was more emphasis on programs and grand plans of the elders rather than dependence upon prayer. During church wide prayer meetings, most elders did not show up, and fewer than 20 people (out of over 500) attended those, whereas, most entertainment events such as Jazz concerts, drama events, banquets, were packed full. The reality is that the church members, and in particular the elders did not truly love Christ above the things of this world. In the Bible Godly men inspired by the Holy Spirit called such people as “white-washed tombs,” “stiff-necked people,” “that fox,” “generation of vipers,” etc.
Regarding the question about who gave spiritual authority to the elders of the Church of Wells, did you ever get the chance to talk to them directly to get an answer to your question? Personally for me, many times the Holy Spirit used either 1 Peter 2:9,10 and Matthew 28:17-20 “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” to make His calling or commissioning clear, without having to depend upon the directions of immoral men to do God’s work.
Love in Christ,
Moses.
But that’s the role you play and what you taught them, specifically the unmarried adult daughter in your household.
But how does that adult daughter become your spiritual authority? And more, spiritual authority over others?
I don’t see it as resisting God’s will in her life. I see an ordinary human process of decision-making; assessment and evaluation, fact-finding, choosing what to believe and what to discard, finding a line of thought to follow. Discernment and discrimination. You weren’t just merely evaluating gossip in a vacuum. You quite properly and reasonably sorted through bits and pieces of information from a variety of sources, including your own first-hand experience, emotion, thoughts and impressions, to form your opinions and arrive at a conclusion. You don’t give yourself credit.
There are no absolutes. No ‘all or nothing’, ‘them or us’, ‘black or white’. There are degrees and infinite shades of gray.
Moses, you need correction on one aspect. Confidence in your assessment and decisions seems to be dependent on de-legitimizing any other experience than your own.
Here’s what I mean. The extent of your awareness of this group (Church of Wells) is measured in months, not years. You first met these people six months ago. Your daughter’s commitment to be married to a man you had never met, can be counted in days. (And that’s okay.) But it’s unreasonable for you to invalidate the experience of those who have known them for years and even decades. You decide what you want to believe, but it’s foolish and counter to wisdom to attempt to render them voiceless and their opinions irrelevant. You do them, and yourself, a disservice.
It’s one thing to weigh it out and assign a level of low importance and priority based on your own values; it’s an entirely different thing to discard it out-of-hand.
It took you 20 years to decide you didn’t like your New Life church in Woodbury, and arrive at a place of enmity and discord. What your daughter describes as “that synogogue of Satan, that place where iniquity reigns, and in which resides idolatry of carnality, false religiosity, meaningless sermons and studies and exploits.” You educated your children in their academy. You know these people, including outside of church. You interact on a daily basis in your community. It took you 20 years to get their full measure; why would you imagine you have the full measure of Church of Wells in a few months? You put full faith and credit in a collection of strangers that you don’t know, that you don’t interact with, in a town a thousand miles away. While you meanly disenfranchise those who have. And condemn them for their opinion and experience because it doesn’t suit you.
This article is about the judicial system and the question of formal accountability for a baby’s death. As Americans and citizens of our communities, it’s both reasonable and our duty to discuss these kinds of issues.
It’s been redirected to be a platform for Moses David and voice for this group’s leaders. I’ll suggest that Sean Morris, Ryan Ringnald, Jake Gardner, Eric Corriz, and any of the others, comment as themselves. Enter into dialogue. Speak for yourself.
Dear Guest, It is not an issue of liking, or disliking of a church, but the sad reality of the condition of the church today, New Life Church is not an exception, they have been deceived into running the church like the rest of the churches today. We have been attending there because we did not know any better, and we were mostly serving there with few Godly friends, but we did not have any meaningful fellowship, and God has been gracious to preserve us against all odds, through the pure and perfect Word of God. We are saddened by the many perishing souls there who are in adultery with the world, just like in most other churches. The remnant of Christ are scattered and are starving for true fellowship, and for the true power of God to be manifested in their lives through the collection of faith filled believers. Love in Christ, Moses.
“We have been attending there because we did not know any better.”
Exactly.
And still doesn’t.
Dear Guest and Loraine, We did not know the importance of righteous judgment within the house of God. Many people consider this to be a taboo, but it is one of the most important principles which should guide church protocol, in order to preserve the purity of the church, and to help people whose faith has been weakened. Love in Christ, Moses.
Exactly what is Righteous Judgment? There are 2 pictures that can help give clarity.
PICTURE #1 – A COURTROOM JUDGE
A courtroom judge has a responsibility and duty to:
– Hear evidence
– Make a decision to determine innocence or guilt
– Make a decision to determine what the penalty will be
– Make that decision known.
It is accepted that a courtroom judge has been delegated this authority. You don’t argue with the courtroom judge and you accept their decision.
It is hoped that a courtroom judge has Righteous Judgment, meaning that their decisions have no favoritism or corruption, and would have an appropriate penalty to fit the crime, etc.
This picture is related to the reputation of a courtroom judge as they are performing their courtroom duties.
PICTURE #2 – A PERSON WHO MAKES GOOD CHOICES
The word “righteous” simply means: good, godly, wise, upright, upstanding, decent, ethical, principled, moral, law-abiding, honest, honorable, blameless, noble; saintly, pure, etc.
We have a wide variety of phrases for this:
– Good choices vs. poor choices.
– Healthy choices vs. unhealthy choices
– Godly choices vs. ungodly choices.
– Safe choices vs. unsafe choices.
– Wise choices vs. unwise choices.
– Good judgment vs. poor judgment
– Sound judgment vs. unsound judgment
– Righteous judgment vs. unrighteous judgment
Each person makes hundreds of personal decisions or choices every day. Based on our reputation, we will be known as a person who either has Good Judgment or Poor Judgment. In other words “Righteous Judgment or Unrighteous Judgment”
This picture is related to the reputation of an individual as they are making daily life choices.
HOW DOES THIS TIE IN WITH MY PREVIOUS POST ABOUT AUTHORITY?
– We live our lives interacting with different people.
– Each person we interact with has a different amount of authority that changes with different situations.
– Each person’s authority has a boundary of where their authority begins and where their authority ends.
Examples:
– I might be the authority in my home, over my children. But I am not allowed to go into a random school and claim authority over that school or other children.
– I am not allowed to claim authority over my boss.
– I might volunteer at a church youth program, but I am not allowed to ignore the pastors instructions about what to teach or not to teach.
Every single day, we are constantly transitioning in and out of being the person in authority, being the person under authority, and being the person with equal authority. It is part of growing up that we all have to learn to recognize important clues about authority and how we are supposed to respond to the different situations.
– Who is the person that is in authority right now over this situation?
– What are the boundaries that I am expected stay within?
– What is the wise and appropriate way to respond to a person of higher authority, a person of lower authority, a person of equal authority?
– How am I going to respond to this situation?
WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE COW?
One of the clues that reveal that the COW doctrines are from Satan is that there are constant issues with Authority:
– They claim authority that is not theirs to claim.
– They overstep the boundaries of the authority that they can claim.
– They ignore the authority of other people and ignore the boundaries for other people
– Their doctrines are from Satan because Satan is the only one who wants to destroy the authority that God has established.
Their behavior is as if they believe they God appointed them to be “Spiritual Courtroom Judges”, with authority that supersedes all previously established authorities. And if they willfully decide to not perform their required Spiritual Courtroom Judge duties then they risk losing their own salvation. As a result, they perform these duties with intense zeal. They believe they have the authority and responsibility to:
– Place anyone they interact with on spiritual trial.
– Determine the standards for which items will be considered sin, and what quantity will be considered enough sin to lose your salvation.
– Make decisions about a person’s guilt or innocence; Make decisions about a person’s earthly penalty and even eternal penalty.
They mis-apply Bible verses that teach about judgment all with the goal of claiming their righteous judgment is closer to picture #1 where they are the Spiritual Courtroom Judge and they are the ones in authority.
Here are several examples of their frequently mis-applied Bible verses about judgment.
Matthew 7:15-19
15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
They frequently start at verse 16-19 to claim that they have permission to judge if you are a true believer and if you don’t measure up then you will be thrown into the fire. They intentionally leave out verse 15 and neglect to explain that this passage does not give the them permission to judge you at all. This gives you permission to evaluate(judge) your spiritual teachers, not to determine their salvation, but to determine if you will allow their teachings to influence you. This is a warning to not submit yourself to spiritual teachers that have a reputation of bad fruit or unrepentant sin. In other words God warns us to have good judgment about which spiritual leaders we will listen to.
Luke 7:24
21 Jesus replied, “I did one miracle on the Sabbath, and you were amazed. 22 But you work on the Sabbath, too, when you obey Moses’ law of circumcision. (Actually, this tradition of circumcision began with the patriarchs, long before the law of Moses.) 23 For if the correct time for circumcising your son falls on the Sabbath, you go ahead and do it so as not to break the law of Moses. So why should you be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath? 24 Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly.”
They frequently use verse 24 to claim they have authority to examine you so they can judge you. They leave out the verses before that reveal Jesus was not giving the Pharisees permission to be more judgmental. He was explaining to them they have faulty judgment.
1 Corinthians 5:6-13
6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.[g] 8 So let us celebrate the festival, not with the old bread[h] of wickedness and evil, but with the new breed of sincerity and truth.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[j] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”
They frequently start out with verses 9-13 to claim they have authority to judge you as a sinner and to stop fellowshipping with you because of it. But they fail to mention that if you start at verse 6 or earlier, you would understand that Paul is explaining that sexual sin easily spreads and you should avoid falling into the sin trap yourself by not hanging out with someone that will suck you into their sin. This does not give the COW permission to be a Spiritual Courtroom Judge. This is about you making wise choices so you can keep yourself from being negatively influenced by someone else’s poor choices.
In conclusion, the COW rob God by claiming authority that God did not give them. This is the sin of Blasphemy.
With Righteous Judgment, we have permission to evaluate them by their fruits so we can determine if they are false prophets and heed the warning to not submit ourselves to their teachings.
PS. Thank you for that song. I love it.
Dear Micah68,
You can try your best to substract from God’s Word, but Paul is very clear about the broader areas of sin, and the required judgment of counterfeit christians who are practicing the ways of the world:
1 Corinthians 4:11-13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a FORNICATOR, or COVETOUS, or an IDOLATOR, or a RAILER, or a DRUNKARD, or an EXTORTIONER; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Love in Christ,
Moses
I have read this thread with great interest. I have waded through the hyperbole and conjecture that some have provided and would now take the opportunity to comment as a parent who has a child involved with COW. I don’t know who Micah68 is, but he/she definitely has wisdom and discernment for which he speaks. I can only imagine that there is some connection, but it doesn’t matter at any rate. This matter of righteous judgement is at the center of the issue with COW. It is at the core of their doctrine which they (the elders) believe has been gifted to them. I have spoken with them, experienced it first hand. Have seen it imparted to my child, having experienced it through my child to me. The misuse or convenience of parts of scriptures are purposeful and utilized to support their doctrine. They can look into your eyes and know whether you are saved.
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3 NKJV)
I invoke that scripture in response to some of the comments and defenses I have seen from Moses regarding Preethi. COW members believe they teach and practice Jesus Christ, and I believe that they believe they do. But I also believe and have witnessed that they are now being made perfect in the flesh. They “attempt” to practice sinless perfection. Preethi has openly admitted that she is dependent on the Sean Morris for her salvation.
The sin of spiritual pride couldn’t be more obvious and apparent. Sean Morris is being positioned as a prophet. Members of the church will tell you the elders have supernatural gifts.
I, like most parents want what is best for my child spiritually and physically. But the influence that these children are under is not to be underestimated. They are being conditioned at an early age (witness Moses comments) as well as when they join to follow a vey precise doctrinal process that includes righteous judgement. They are spiritual elitists that hide behind the statements they love everyone. The lack of charity and mercy shown to family is by design and is not what Christ taught.
There is darkness here.
Dear Reconciled, I pray that you will be reconciled with your child in the peace of Christ. Sinless perfection will only come when Christ transforms His children into the likeness of His image. Until then, those who practice willful unrepentant sin, even of idolatry with this world and the forsaking of his/her first love are subject to eternal judgment by Christ Himself, no matter what they think about themselves, Preethi and myself included! Love in Christ, Moses.
Restating the question:
You see, each person that has received a unique special authority from God gets it face to face and audibly and they can tell the story.
The Bible does not actually give the authority the CoW claims that they have to issue Righteous judgment that belongs only to God. And after hundreds of hours of material and hundreds of comments by you and other CoW members… No one has yet been able to explain how they got the authority.
No one from the CoW has ever provided an explanation for how God gave them an audible, face to face delegation of authority that belongs only to God.
Where did this idea come from that the children can issue Righteous judgment on the parents?
Moses response: Did you ask Church of Wells?
When you recommend and endorse someone as an authority, you can certainly say why you think so. You can and you must, when you are endorse them as prophets and spiritual authorities, superiorly qualified to pronounce righteous judgement on others. You are quite strong in your admiration of them. You should be able to articulate why. Or something’s wrong.
Moses refers to bible verses 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Followed by Matthew 28:17.
This passage is specifically about the Resurrection of Christ. The unavoidable implication is that Church of Wells represents Jesus and the eleven Disciples. Is this what you believe, Moses?
Dear Guest, Jake, Ryan and Sean have a very inspiring account of how God established His work among them. Instead of questioning everyone else about the basis for the authority of their ministry, Micah68 should hear their account of the story. I am confident that he will be blessed to hear it, if he goes with an open mind. Regarding the promises of 1 Peter and the great commission/promise of Matthew 28, these apply to every born again believer who is presently in a reconciled position with God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Are you one of them? If not, why not? Taste and see that the Lord, He is GOOD! Love in Christ, Moses.
When you recommend and endorse someone as an authority, you can certainly say why you think so.
Dear Moses,
From the many conversations you have had with several different people, both on Liberty for Captives as well as theragblog.com, it appears that you are in full agreement of all things related to Church of Wells. This would include agreeing that they that they are THE remnant church and that God has chosen them specifically for His second coming. Can you please confirm this, so that I may have clarity as to your beliefs in this regard?
Dear Truth Seeker, They do not believe that they are the only true church, but say that most churches have drifted far from the description of the true church described in the Bible. If fact, they believe, that they themselves have a ways to go before they can be the like the church described in the Bible. By God’s grace, they are much closer to the description of the New Testament church than most other churches that I have come across. Love in Christ, Moses.
It’s only a matter of time until the COW is exposed…..
Continue to pray that God reveals the falseness in their teaching and that the people involved will see the truth according to God’s word and leave. My hearts breaks for those being brainwashed into believing these so called elders and being separated from their families. They will be held accountable to leading many astray.
Dear Jane Doe, Christ is coming soon, and we need to be ready to receive Him. The elders are not separating families, but the Word of God is……many parents are unwilling to hear the Word of God from the mouths of their dear, loving children, the ones they begat from their own bodies. Love in Christ, Moses.
But wait. You said conflict was caused by parents’ disappointment that their adult children rejected materialistic worldly lifestyles and ambitions.
Dear Guest, The Word of God is at that center of it, the conformance of the church members to the Word of God brings conflict with those parents who value the temporal over the eternal, and do not want to hear the Words of life (from God’s Word) which the children are eager to share with their parents. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses-
#1 Talking to the COW elders directly.
You do keep saying to clear up the confusion by talking to them direction, and so do they.
I wonder why they are such poor communicators that they have been unable to simply explain things in the mountains of writings, videos, and audio clips they produce.
Let me be clear on my position.
– These 3 men have 10+ years of experience creating doctrines filled with deception.
– These 3 men make it their full time job to teach their doctrines of demons.
– But it is not just 3 men. I am not naive. I know that the battle is not with 3 men. The battle is with demons.
– My Righteous Judgment (aka Wise Judgment, aka Wise Discernment) knows that stepping into battle with demons on their turf should not be done carelessly.
– I am fully aware of how the other parents have come back from the battle with some pretty serious wounds.
– I have heard the testimonies of hours and hours of preaching in circles, quoting Bible verses, having no opportunity to validate the items.
– I understand they write the same way they speak. Forever tossing around Bible verses that have been taken out of context and misrepresented.
(Exactly like these blog comments go, is how it goes in person also, except when you’re in person or on the phone, you are in battle alone, without any support)
– I have experience that it takes hours just to validate small portions of what they write and say and return with a wise response.
– They like it when people get tricked into doing battle in person. That is the battle position they are most skilled at and the battle position everyone else is least skilled at.
– I tell you it is foolish to do battle with them in person without a video camera, an audio recording, or a written transcript, and bringing multiple people along that are well studied in the COW issues and the Biblical doctrines.
– I tell you that there are plenty of pastors with an existing open call for them to have face to face conversations about their doctrine.
– If the COW honestly wanted to clear up the confusion, they can contact the CARM group right now and get it taken care of.
– As with all battles, there is an authority structure that I am well aware of. “The battle belongs to the Lord”. At this point, if I take the battle to them in person, I would be stepping outside the boundary lines that the Holy Spirit has guided me on. I will not step outside the authority of the Holy Spirit.
– I will continue my battle exactly as prompted by the Holy Spirit, not as prompted by you.
___________________________________
#2 The passages you list do not give the COW any authority to issue Righteous Judgment on others as if they were a Spiritual Courtroom Judge. You are intentionally leaving out the surrounding sentences which reveals the intended meaning has nothing to do with what you claim. This is intentional deception on your part, which is further proof that the COW doctrines are from Satan.
1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
This does not say anything about delegating to the COW the specific duties of being a Spiritual Courtroom Judge. Actually the only authority delegated in the verse you listed is to declare the praises of God who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
In fact, if you read the very next sentence, the meaning is again clearly revealed that Righteous Judgment is a persons’ own decision making ability. We are to make godly choices in our personal daily life.
Why would you leave out the surrounding verses unless your intention is deception?
Perhaps if you read the entire chapter 2, then would clearly see that that the whole chapter is about making personal Godly choices.
But there is more. Amazingly verse 13-26 goes into specific details about… Wait for it… AUTHORITY. To summarize, we are to respectfully live within the boundaries of the human authorities that God has established. So indeed, it all comes down to the fact the COW claims authority that does not belong to them and they don’t respect the boundaries of other people. And they repeatedly misrepresent God’s word in an attempt to claim authority that God did not give them.
_____________________
Now The wonderful Great Commission – Matthew 28:16-20 (Where Jesus explains his authority and does indeed delegate some portion of authority to the disciples.)
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
This passage came after Jesus’ resurrection because after Jesus defeated death, we no longer have to be consumed by selfish quest to earn/keep our own salvation with our own good works. We are allowed to actually expand our vision to an unselfish quest of sharing God’s free gift to all nations and all people groups.
This does not give the COW any more authority then it gives me or you. The COW does not get to claim to have more authority than everyone else? They have stolen the authority that belongs only to God.
As additional proof that the Great Commission has not delegated out permission to be COW style Spiritual Courtroom Judges, take a look at Acts 15, where the same group of disciples had to make a decision about how judgmental they are supposed to be and how strict they would be for Gentile believers.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+15&version=NLT
ACTS 15 – SUMMARY
– A cult like group known as “The Sect of the Pharisees” sent open air street preachers out insisting that Gentile believers cannot be saved unless they follow the law of Moses.
– The burden of these requirements conflicted with what Paul was preaching, so Paul was sent to resolve the issue with the apostles in Jerusalem. There was intense discussion about this issue.
– Peter explained that God knows people’s hearts and God confirms that he accepts the Gentile believers by giving them the Holy Spirit.
– Peter and James decided that they should not make it difficult for Gentile believers who are turning to God.
– An official decision was made by the church in Jerusalem, the apostles, and elders. An official letter was written and an official delegation was sent back with Paul to announce their decision.
ACTS 15
23 This is the letter they took with them:
“This letter is from the apostles and elders, your brothers in Jerusalem. It is written to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. Greetings!
24 “We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them! 25 So we decided, having come to complete agreement, to send you official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are sending Judas and Silas to confirm what we have decided concerning your question.
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements: 29 You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.”
Wow! Study this passage Moses. This is God’s word directly about the CoW.
Acts 15:7-11 is also amazingly powerful:
What is happening here Moses is that when the COW perform their Righteous Judgment on people, they are dismissing and rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit in peoples’ lives. When the COW claims that someone that God saved is not really saved at all, then they are indeed claiming to have more authority than God, because it is God alone that determines who is saved, not humans. God accepts people by giving them the Holy Spirit. God accepts people by their hearts, not their actions. The COW sins in this area are revealed to be Pride, Blasphemy, Theft.
7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe. 8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. 10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers[b] with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear? 11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”
_____________________
Now as Guest described. The article is about the death of baby Faith. We can return to this with one of my favorite passages.
The CoW has a reputation of repeatedly having unrepentant willful sin with all 7 of the sins that God hates.
– We have already identified the COW has a Pride problem.
– We can also see they have lying problem because they use deception when they repeatedly mis-represent Bible verses.
Let’s look to see if there is anymore on this list we can talk about.
Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things the Lord hates.
There are seven things he cannot stand:
17 a proud look,
a lying tongue,
hands that kill innocent people,
18 a mind that thinks up evil plans,
feet that are quick to do evil,
19 a witness who lies,
and someone who starts arguments among families.
O my look at this: “hands that kill innocent people”
Dear Micah68, God would hate your lies if you were wrong in your conclusions based upon hearing witnesses from only one side. The correct protocol is to hear both sides of the story. Please be fair and request a hearing from the elders of the church if you are keen on making such a vicious stand against the people of God. Love in Christ, Moses.
Because you have heard both sides??? You constantly speak of only one and then you put words in people mouth and make accusations…you take what one side says about their parents for the God’s honest truth but don’t listen to the parent’s telling it to you directly. Hypocrite much. Geez I’m tired of arguing with you. Truth be told, I keep you going so you can continue to speak out and give Lamar something to write about.
Still Praying !!!
Dear Micah68, A longer response does not necessarily authenticate your position. You talk about a courtroom, and a judge. No judge will make a verdict before hearing both sides of the story. You had a simple question about how the Church of Elders obtained their position of authority to righteously judge, and you concluded that nobody gave them that authority. By condemning them for judging without having the authority to righteously judge, you have unrighteously condemned them without hearing their side of the story. Basically, you are accused of what you are accusing them of without showing due diligence. My sincere advice for you is to seek to hear their side of the story first if you want to take such a strong stance against them in your open condemnation of the saints of God. Love in Christ, Moses.
Quite right that a judge will insist on hearing “both sides.” The elders would be obliged to respond to basic questions that require simple, clear, meaningful answers. Obfuscation and replying in allegorical bible verse would not be accommodated and after a fair amount of attempt to clarify, would be viewed as “contempt of court.” That applies here as well.
You cannot accuse anyone of failure of “due diligence.” Simply neither accurate nor truthful. Truth is an affirmative defense.
• Twelve days of simple clear questions with responses for and on behalf on Church of Wells documented here is proof-positive.
• 47 days of same on http://libertyforcaptives.com/2014/04/07/does-the-church-of-wells-teach-a-false-gospel/#comments.
• Many direct personal email exchanges with the leaders, in polite clear language.
• Three interactive personal blogs for the group leaders. With comment sections.
• Several Church of Wells websites and group members whose function is to write, prepare materials and maintain these websites.
• A professional marketing firm specializing in “advertising and branding.”
seek to hear their side of the story first
Yes.
Have done.
The three leaders have been asked common simple questions and have had boundless opportunity to respond in a variety of forms, publicly as a well as personal and private.
Fact – Moses David has posted direct communication from Sean Morris, at his direction. Sean chose his response and Moses David served as secretary.
Two truths on human communication:
1. Poetic responses to non-spiritual questions in a mystical spiritual context that requires interpretation, is evasive and refusal to answer.
2. A non-answer is an answer.
To inanely complain that they haven’t been asked is patently false. Untrue. A lie. Any idiot can see that. Don’t ever make this excuse again, Moses. It’s foolish and reveals a lack of wisdom.
Dear Guest, Witnesses do not even identify themselves in forums like this…..so what kind of witnesses are they? In the court of the law, the witnesses have to identify themselves, and swear on oath. How can Micah68 take such a firm stand without even talking personally to the elders to know how they received the authority for their ministry? This man has named himself as Micah68, where God says that He requires people to act justly, and he is not doing that, and will face God’s judgment one day, and this day is coming very soon! Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Moses, I am reposting my question because it got buried above; however I am still curious to your answer. Thank you
From the many conversations you have had with several different people, both on Liberty for Captives as well as theragblog.com, it appears that you are in full agreement of all things related to Church of Wells. This would include agreeing that they that they are THE remnant church and that God has chosen them specifically for His second coming. Can you please confirm this, so that I may have clarity as to your beliefs in this regard?
Dear Truth Seeker, They do not believe that they are the only true church, but they do assert that most other churches completely differ from the pattern of the true church that is described in the New Testament. Love in Christ, Moses.
A typical CoW response. When they are asked about themselves, their group, their philosophies, they respond by criticizing churches and leaders. They point to something else. When asked what they believe, their typical response is about what others believe.
Precisely what is the pattern of the “true church” they define themselves as and that “most” churches differ from?
This is deflection.
Dear Moses,
Yes they do believe they are the only true church at least in America. That was why I was told that I must go to Wells even if I am saved so I don’t become in a back slid den state. They told me they “hoped there are other churches out there that are true but so far they have found none”. They also claim to be THE remnant and God is calling his children from all over the world to them. I heard with my own ears!
Dear Truth Seeker, I have heard it from their ears that they do not believe that they are the only true church, but they refused to name the other true churches, in fear that I would spread slander against them to these other churches. They also said that they are far from the perfect New Testament Church of the Bible. Regarding the statement that you could be become backslidded in your present church, they probably have a good point because, most churches do not have the level of accountability that the Church of Wells does, and it is very easy for a believer to drift away from the truth because of the deceitfulness of sin, and the extent of evil, even within the churches in the United States. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses. I was told by a man who spoke with you earlier this year that you personally told him you were “blackmailed” into supporting the COW. I know the details. Do you deny this?
Dear For Freedom, It appeared that way because of all the slanderous reports against them, they were simply following through on their righteous judgment of us, and I was not willing to admit my sin of harsh treatment of Preethi at that time, so it seemed justifiable to me that they were the ones blackmailing me, when the problem was with myself….I was too prideful to admit my sin! Things turned around when I repented of my sin and received forgiveness by God’s grace. Love in Christ, Moses.
The fact is a baby died. The fact is this baby did not nurse according to the statements of the father. The fact is the baby did not nurse or drink milk for three days according to the statements of the father. The fact is the father knew it was sick because he tried to feed a newborn baby with an eyedropper. The fact is the Father did not seek medical care or emergency assistance when the baby failed to nurse for three days. The fact is this is obvious neglect and abuse in the most worst manner of care of an infant. The fact is this baby died while under this father’s care. The fact is someone should be held responsible for the death of this baby. Who should be held responsible is the question. Where was the mother ? Why did she apparently do nothing to try and help her baby ? Why would she allow her baby to go for three days without getting medical help ? Was she under someone else’s mind control that she could watch her child basically starve to death. ? How could the father watch his child die without going for help ? Was someone else controlling them ? Who ? Should this someone if they were influencing the parents also be held responsible ? Why did the DA not prosecute ?
Dear facethefacts, It was not God’s will that baby Faith live. The Pursleys love their children and I cannot imagine that they would neglect their children, especially a sick child, that is why they earnestly prayed for healing. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses, Are you implying then, It was God’s will that Baby Faith not be taken to a doctor or receive emergency medical treatment when it became apparent the baby could not nurse or suckle any nutrients /sustenance necessary for life ? Are you saying it was God’s will that this mother and father choose to watch their baby die instead of requesting for medical assistance ? when they could obviously see from the moment she was born and hence for three days after that she could not suckle or nurse and therefore was not getting any sustenance to maintain life ? Are you saying that it was God’s will for them to willfully sin to choose to not get help for their suffering and weakening child ? Maybe they repented of this willful sin ? But you know what, Moses, its still murder, even if they do repent, when a parent chooses to not get help for their child when they know they should and they die. Maybe your saying that the parents were not aware their child was in danger ? Then they should not be parents. Any parent knows a newborn infant has to have milk nutrients to maintain life. If they don’t know this then they should not be allowed to have custody of children. Is it God’s will that this mother and father watch their child starve to death ? Mr. Moses, if you had an animal that bore an offspring that did not nurse or suckle for three days you can be pretty guaranteed to know that it is going to die. It is willful homicide what happened to that baby. Those parents chose to not get help to ensure their child received the necessary nutrients and life-giving required sustenance to maintain its life. They chose and willfully chose to not get assistance when the mother could not nurse the baby successfully and when the father failed to get nutrients into the baby by eye-dropper. And by the way I have never heard of “Sane People” choosing to try and feed their newborn infant with an eyedropper. That is what you do with animal’s puppies and kittens when you are trying to save money so you don’t have to take the animal to a veterinarian or maybe out in the rough in Africa when their is no hospital or doctor. But Heck Moses, this is the U.S.A. they are fifteen thirty minutes from excellent hospitals there in Wells, Texas. They made a decision to watch their baby die. NO normal good parent would do such a thing. There is nothing else to say. Is it God’s will that the ISIS jihadists are killing women and children in the middle east. ? That is your logic. Sorry your wrong. The parents and anyone who influenced them with the authority of a pastor needs to be prosecuted for child-neglect and either manslaughter or murder because the neglect of this baby to receive life sustenance led to its death even if it did have a congenital heart problem. The doctors would have found the baby’s heart problem if the parents had chosen to seek medical assistance for their child’s inability to nurse and inability to receive life-sustaining required nutrients. The doctors would have been given a chance to repair the the child’s heart problem if the parents had cared enough to attend to their child’s nutrient needs to sustain life and taken the baby for medical care or called for help when they were aware they were not able to feed it properly. Most normal parents if their newborn child is not taking a bottle or nursing within hours of it being born call for help. These parents never called for help for over three days. It’s Abuse It’s Neglect. It’s torture. It’s obvious. PERIOD. Like I said earlier it’s Willful Homicide that happened in Wells, Texas May 2012 and there is again no statute of limitations on Homicide murder manslaughter ….. Facethefacts : your daughter married a man who watched and encouraged the neglect and abuse of a newborn infant to its death.
Justice Wiley B. Rutledge:
“The right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child to … ill health or death. Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children before they have reached the age of full consent and legal discretion when they can make that choice for themselves.”
Prince v. Massachusetts (1944)
So if your wife is choking on a hot dog you will simply stand by and wait for God’s will…right? No need for medical intervention or the good ole heave ho….wait for God’s Will to shove it out. That’s what I am understanding…right. Amen.
It’s a bummer that Moses never replied to my post… Oh well. I do have a new thought and a question for Moses regarding COWs claims to authority.
First, why do you keep telling us to ask them? Why can’t you just tell us? You seem to be well informed about their dealings.
One thing I find interesting about COW is how and they they skirt the issue of their so-called appointed authority. See, other cult groups don’t hesitate to say “Hey! God spoke to Joseph Smith and said he has authority!” While I believe they are wrong, I give them props for putting themselves out there and clearly stating what they believe and WHY. To not do so, as is the case here, is COWardice. Sorry, had to.
The second thing I want to ask is: why is God working in their life and “their” story reason enough for their authority? See, if COW’s elders have to validate MY story and experience with God to make sure I am saved… Why weren’t they subject to the same scrutiny? It’s self validation at it’s best. “I am saved because I think God said so. Now you need to prove to me that you’re saved too!”
If God working in their lives is enough to validate their own salvation, why isn’t it enough for mine? God came into my life and revealed himself in certain ways to me too, you know. He radically changed my life to be one of service and love to be lived for Him alone. You may not know me or my story Moses and COW, but that’s okay. I just find it funny that you feel God’s personal workings in their lives are more valuable than they are in mine (and all other non-COW Christ followers).
Why is my testimony not good enough?
Dear Tarka, I do not know why your testimony was not authenticated by the Church of Wells members. All I can say is that they are very meticulous and thorough in their righteous judgment, because the implications are one of eternal life, or eternal death, so they will not affirm a person’s salvation when they see the fruits of unrepentant, willful sin. I know that they do not change this standard for themselves, everyone of the church members, including the elders are accountable to one another. I know of at least one incident when one of the elders was rebuked by the other two elders because of input by a couple of church members, and the elder took the rebuke seriously and sought the Lord’s help to overcome this transgression. I sincerely hope and pray that the Lord will grant His grace to humble you, so that you can see the unbelief which they might have pointed to you, so that you can repent from it and set yourself right before a Holy and righteous God. Love in Christ, Moses.
Why on earth would Tarka’s testimony have to be authenticated Church of Wells members?? This is unbiblical and absurd!
Dear Truth Seeker, God is the one who will authenticate our faith. One of the fruits of authentic salvation is the conviction of sin. If there is an obvious fruit of unrighteousness in a person, and the person chooses to justify themselves of this sin without repenting, then, either the person is not saved, or is in a terribly backslidden state, either of which states is a damnable state. The Church of Wells uses righteous judgment out of love, to turn the people into repentance. In the absence of a repentant heart, it becomes apparent that the person is not saved to begin with. This state can be judged in the power of the Spirit. Ultimately, Tarka is accountable to God, and not to the Church of Wells, but if the elders pointed out certain fruit in Tarka that she is unwilling to repent of, this is most likely a dangerous position for Tarka to be in, but ultimately, it is God who will judge Tarka. Love in Christ, Moses.
Yes that is unbiblical and absurd. God only is our judge. COW finds fault with just about everything in a person who doesn’t agree with ALL of their teachings. The problem is , their idea of what’s righteous and unrighteous is according to their our standards, twisting scripture to meet their beliefs.
They shouldn’t even be judging who is a believer and who is not! Yes, we should see by a persons fruit and be able to tell if they are a believer but that doesn’t mean they are or aren’t. Only God knows the heart and to sit and tell someone they aren’t really saved is completely unbiblical. A huge fault and sin for the COW….. But they call it righteous judgement.
or maybe the DA is still working on the case. There is no time limit for statute of limitations in homicide cases and letting a newborn infant go for three days without drinking nursing getting nutrients is MURDER of the heart condition. If someone had responded to the babies inability to nurse and weakening condition due to not getting life requiring sustenance they would have become aware of the heart condition. So the base cause of the infants death is neglect which led to it’s death. That’s Willfull HOMICIDE Moses ….
Dear facethfacts, It is willful homicide to reject Christ. Christ is coming again, and He will judge the hearts of people. He has a double-edged sword in His mouth to judge the nations. You and I, we need to be ready to receive Him. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” – Hebrews 9:27,28. Love in Christ, Moses.
So Baby Faith at 3 days old knew Christ and willfully rejected him?
Moses says : “Dear facethfacts, It is willful homicide to reject Christ.”
Moses this is propaganda dogma straight from Sean Morris’ mouth The Doctrine of Judgement. By the way, there is a lot of talk about murder and violence in the D.O.G. Is it because all Sean Morris can think about is murder ? He said that in his personal testimony that he watched so many videos all he could think about is murder and now it seems these murderous thoughts have emerged in his writings … Is this Sean writing ? Sean Morris also writes God wants to kill us like a dog shoot us in the head on the first page of his D.O.G. hmmm … That is not A Good Shepherd. A Good Shepherd protects his sheep from the wolves he doesn’t kill his sheep …. Concerning this man Sean Morris I give you this warning … I John 4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.” A leader a person or persons with influence over others who would lead a father and a mother to neglect their baby as Facethefacts described above sounds like very dangerous people. Neglect leading to the death of a child or baby is still homicide in the real world … whether it has gone before a DA or trial. They don’t have anymore right to influence anyone with that track record. They lost it. and as Facethefacts wrote and it is true check the Texas Law for statutes … there is no statute of time limitations for homicide.
Dear ablessedlamb, What do you mean by D.O.G? Love in Christ, Moses.
Oh the acronym was supposed to be DOJ … just was thinking about how evil it is that Sean Morris is dominating over people’s minds with fear that God is going to kill them. that is where DOG slipped in. It’s on the front page of the Doctrine of Judgement written by author Sean Morris the leader of this group. Maybe you haven’t seen that Moses. Sean Morris compares God to a master who drags his dog off and shoots the dog in the head in a desolate field. so that is where the DOG came from … those poor children that must endure this constant fear of death and so graphically violent hmmm…I saw that story by one of their children how she and her brothers became so violently sick and fearful so much so that the brothers began throwing up from fear of dying. That doesn’t sound normal or healthy actually very unnormal more like abusive behavior by the parents. Oh by the way is this how Sean Morris breaks people in the mind with fear of imminent death by threatening them with some graphic descriptions of violence that God is going to kill them and how … does he act it out someway…do other people get sick violently sick also like those children from fear of death ? I mean really what kind of man talks so much about murder … how could he stand by and just watch a baby die suffer cry starve couldn’t eat or drink … till its last cry was silence … a cold and heartless man that’s the one …. a dangerous man. I am ablessedlamb because I know the Good Shepherd and I know He would never want to kill me like a wolf shoot me in the head …I just find this story by this man just so alarming. I just find it all so frightening all this talk of murder “mass murderers” by Sean Morris.
Mr. David, you left a church you spent 20-something years in. You raised your children in that church and educated them in its school. You say you “didn’t know better” and were deceived.
You started your own home church (not a bad thing) that your own daughter says you aren’t qualified to lead. Less than a year later, you are invested in a faith group (a “local church” or “missional community”) that you know very little about. Your entire experience amounts to a few weeks. You don’t attend the group’s services and you are 1,000 miles away.
Yet you feel superiorly qualified to endorse this group as the “true church” and openly condemn anyone who doesn’t. You discourage questions about philosophy and doctrine.
~ This isn’t wisdom or superior judgement.
Good stuff always stands the test of scrutiny and time. Good positive stuff never needs to be delivered with a spanking. Good stuff can be explained and doesn’t hide beneath a veil of mysterious secrecy.
It appears that the group’s leaders have tasked you with running interference and engaging the public for them. Perhaps you are compelled to because you want to preserve a relationship with your daughter.
Step back and rethink. You won’t lose your grasp. Have faith. Questions are not harmful. Meaningful real answers are righteous valuable truth. That even you can benefit from. Genuine righteousness needs no artful dissembling.
Dear Guest, We left New Life Church because of the damnable doctrine which crept into the church that the elders have supported, the Free Grace Theology of Zane Hodges, a seducing doctrine which will lead people into damnation. On the contrary, everything I find in the Church of Wells is Biblical, and the persecution that they are facing authenticates them….Christ is a Rock of offense to the disobedient, and they will do everything in their power to resist Him, but God is bigger than His enemies, and He will demonstrate His grace even to His enemies to save some, who will humble themselves eventually in repentance after the glory of God is manifested. Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Moses
Please consider these scriptures: Jeremiah 23 30-40
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.
33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord.
34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house.
35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken?
36 And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.
37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?
38 But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord;
39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Dear Truth Seeker, This is a description of the false prophets of the multitudes of churches around us, who are seducing people into sin, they preach a burden which is not of the Lord, but their primary purpose is to support their sinful indugences. They will fluorish more and more as we see the day approaching, but will eventually be destroyed by Christ Himself! Love in Christ, Moses.
And what exempts COW from being added to this group? They have a “burden of the Lord” about everything per their conversations with me. They claim authority which they do not have. They take scripture out of context and add to it. Seems pretty evident they fall into this category.
Justice Wiley B. Rutledge:
Prince v. Massachusetts (1944)
Faith Healing and the Law
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/08/31/faith-healing-and-the-law/
Is there a constitutional argument that these exemptions violate the Establishment Clause for a different reason: because they favor certain denominations – those that believe in faith healing – over others?
This question raises much more difficult constitutional issues. Many state statutes limit exemptions for faith healing to members of “recognized” religious traditions. The exemptions often contain this language because the Church of Christ, Scientist (commonly known as the Christian Science church), one of the major religious groups that believes in faith healing, has pushed for the legislation and has developed its own standards for training and licensing practitioners of its spiritual care. An argument can be made that by including only “recognized” religious traditions such as the Church of Christ, Scientist, these exemptions discriminate against parents who sincerely believe in faith healing but who are not members of traditions that have become sufficiently popular or influential to receive state recognition. For example, these exemptions would appear not to protect parents who are members of a newly formed religious group, parents who have sincere religious beliefs about faith healing even though they belong to a denomination that does not practice it, or parents who believe in faith healing but do not belong to a religious tradition at all.
A primary purpose of the Establishment Clause is to prohibit the state from favoring some religious groups over others. So if a court refused to exempt parents on the ground that their faith tradition was not “recognized,” it would likely violate the Establishment Clause.
DFPS caseworkers frequently asked the parents whether they had any reasons to oppose providing medical care for their children. The Pursleys always responded that they had no reservations about seeking medical care for them.”
On the face of it, it looks like a faith-healing case. Strangely, it isn’t.
Dear Guest, They explained that the extremeties seen in the baby were not much different from the other babies, and believed that God could make the baby alright. The Pursleys are not the type of people who would neglect their children….in fact, they prayed with intense burden for the child to be healed, and finally, to be resurrected. It was not God’s will for this child to live, and He took her to be with Himself. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses, what other babies? Others born into the group?
Dear Anon, I think they meant other babies that Pursleys had. Love in Christ, Moses.
Who meant that? What do you mean “they”? You are the one who wrote the words.
Guest,
Dan had been quoted that their older son was born with blue tinted extremities at birth. He was born in a birthing center with a midwife. The first two were born in a hospital with a midwife.
I have worked with the midwife that delivered their third and felt she raised red flags.. so I don’t doubt that perhaps he could be speaking truth.. but that still does not make blue extremities the ‘norm’
Yes, that’s the tragic part – the Pursleys are not at all the neglectful ‘type’. This should not have happened. And would not have under other circumstances.
• Had Mom and baby had the benefit of routine care following birth. Didn’t have to be a doc. It could have been a nurse, midwife or doula.
• Had they simply reached out to readily available non-medical sources like Le Leche to get advice on nursing. This is the reason such organizations exist and continue to be funded. Because it helps prevent avoidable illness for babies of under-educated, under-resourced parents.
• Had they been among family and friends, interacting in a normal way with the birth of a new baby.
• Had the mother and baby not been completely isolated with three men standing over her, calling the shots about her birthing and baby.
• If mom had the guts to shove her husband and his buddies out of the way, get in the car and drive to the ER. Or just grabbed a cell phone and dialed 911.
Are you speaking for God? Could you be even a tiny bit humble and instead say ‘I think or I believe it was not God’s will’?
I don’t think so. No, it wasn’t God’s will. It was Ryan Ringnald and Sean Morris’s will.
This baby survived the stress of birth. She lived three days. She had no fluid intake, electrolyte imbalance, organ failure, and progressive respiratory failure. That was a baby struggling for life with a cardiac condition and no physical support. There was something Divine keeping her afloat against the odds.
God doesn’t work that way, Moses. That was the sinful interference of man.
Moses, exactly when did they start praying?
Moses, you earned a PHD. Supposedly an intelligent man? Do you honestly believe that comparing the “bluish” extremities in one baby to the “bluish” extremities in another baby is something that should be left up to a total layperson? The Pursleys were neglectful parents to THIS baby. No other baby matters as THIS baby is the one who was allowed to die a slow, painful death. SHAME ON THEM, THE COW MEMBERS, AND YOU for trying to mask the negligence in this case with anything BUT negligence. MY prayer is that the proper people end up paying the legal price of their horrible judgement and end up in prison, AND soon!!!! A judge and jury should be the final deciders of whether or not Baby Faith was murdered through negligence and selfishness. The egos of the “elders” in this group are absolutely pathetic and disgusting. A baby DIED because of their Egos! These people must be punished and held accountable for what they did and anyone who had any contact with that baby and did nothing MUST be investigated. THERE is YOUR love in Christ, Mr. Moses…
Moses-
This is what the Lord has spoken about you and the COW.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (ESV)
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’
22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
You and the COW repeatedly write words and speak words which you claim are from God.
This is the Deuteronomy test of a True/False Prophet.
– Did the elders speak a Word from the Lord claiming baby Faith would be miraculously healed.
(Baby Faith was not healed.)
– Did the elders speak a Word from the Lord claiming baby Faith would be raised from the dead?
(Baby Faith was not raised from the dead.)
How many other items are they wrong about?
How many of the Biblical True/False Prophet tests do they have to fail before you will acknowledge that the COW cannot be the true prophets?
God did not give these Biblical Tests so you could ignore them. He gave these Biblical Tests so you don’t get tricked by a false prophet.
Use your Righteous Judgment (Good Judgment) and hold the COW to the Biblical True/False Prophet Tests.
If any of you are true prophets, then you must willingly submit yourselves to all the Biblical True/False Prophet Tests.
Because the COW has failed the Deuteronomy True/False Prophet Test, then I take comfort knowing that God’s Word clearly tells me not to be afraid of what you say.
Very well said, Micah68! The red flags are all over
And it doesn’t take much for a believer in Christ to see that they fail the biblical prophetic tests.
Dear friends, this is Mr. Lamar Hankins email lamarhankins@mac.com Mr. Hankins, who is a Texas attorney, is the author of the recent article https://www.theragblog.com/lamar-w-hankins-report-child-murder-in-texas/ concerning the C.O.W.
Mr. Hankins welcomes anyone who would like to contact him personally about the article to write him at his email address lamarhankins@mac.com
Anyone that would like to provide any information small large new or old they may have regarding their children or family/friends in COW he is requesting you email him. He is working on additional topics for articles specifically pertaining to the COW and would appreciate anyone who is willing to share. Mr. Hankins is doing everything he can to help bring light to this very serious situation concerning families here in East Texas and from across the country. Mr. Hankins did an excellent job on the article he published below. Lets help him all we can. He will keep all information confidential. Thank you for helping in anyway you can. Any information small or large could be the straw that’s necessary …
Lamar W. Hankins : REPORT | Child murder in Texas | The Rag Blog
http://www.theragblog.com
Thank you!!!
Dear Micah68, Did they tell you that they spoke a Word from the Lord, or did someone say that they spoke a Word from the Lord? Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Micah68, There is a testimony of the church’s account of what happened in the following link, please hear their side of the story:
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/files/theme/Faith%20Pursley%20Memorial%20Sermon%20060112.mp3
Love in Christ, Moses
Dear COW : The fact is a baby died. The fact is this baby did not nurse according to the statements of the father. The fact is the baby did not nurse or drink milk for three days according to the statements of the father. The fact is the father knew was knowledgeable was aware was cognitive the newborn infant was sick because he tried to feed a newborn baby with an eyedropper. The fact is the Father did not seek medical care or emergency assistance when the baby failed to nurse for three days. The fact is this is obvious neglect and abuse in the most worst manner of care of an infant. The fact is this baby died while under this father’s care. The fact is someone should be held responsible for the death of this baby. Who should be held responsible is the question. Where was the mother ? Why did she apparently do nothing to try and help her baby ? Why would she allow her baby to go for three days without getting medical help ? Was she under someone else’s mind control that she could watch her child basically starve to death. ? How could the father watch his child die without going for help ? Was someone else controlling them ? Who ? Should this someone if they were influencing the parents also be held responsible ? Why did the DA not prosecute ? or maybe it is still a case as there is no statute of time limitations in homicide or murder or manslaughter cases. Is this why you are so secretive ?
There is no Church of Wells “side” of this issue.
We want to hear their side of the story in a courtroom with a judge and a prosecutor and a jailman waiting to handcuff them … the three leaders who abuse neglect torment have innocent blood on their hands
Moses,
I listened to the above link and I am more disturbed than ever. Using David and Bathsheba as an example…and then defending every other thing. He says he believes liars go to hell. I know he was untruthful on more than one account. I don’t believe that is enough to send someone to hell but I am even more disturbed now!
we know sean morris is a liar … we can prove it … if he was truly a righteous judge … he would turn himself into the authorities …
*** Warning: Emotional content ***
Moses-
You are a highly intelligent man. Why do you have difficulty using your Righteous Judgement to recognize that something is wrong.
No less than 50 intelligent adults were able to be convinced by one or more highly motivational people to commit an action that every adult in America knows would be a considered a crime. To move a dead body from the scene of death. Somehow 50 adults were inspired by someone that they not only should move the body one time, but 6 times to different houses covering a distance of several miles.
Can you imagine the constant cries of baby Faith telling people that something is wrong?
Can you imagine the difficult agony that every member was experiencing wondering how to get baby Faith to eat?
Can you imagine the echoing sound of when baby Faith started having difficulty breathing?
Now imagine the response of the 3 elders that you trust. The pressure they would have felt to say something. To speak confidently that God would heal baby Faith. Imagine their fervent preaching and praying style. Can you imaging them not saying something that would motivate 50 people to stand firm in their faith. Which person do you think would not have said God will heal baby Faith?
Then there is silence…baby Faith breaths her last breath and the tears and pain and shock and fear begin to set in.
Someone, anyone make it stop. Can you imagine the pressure the elders would have felt. What do we do now? Someone came up with the idea that God’s plan is to raise baby Faith from the dead. Who’s idea was that? How did they sell that idea to 50 people? Yes… Yes, that must be right, God wants to raise baby Faith from the dead. Hours and hours go by with prayer and declaring God’s goodness, but still nothing. Why?
Can you imaging the doubt that crept in? Which people first thought about calling the police. Every adult in America knows that you call the police when there is a dead body. What do we do now? Someone with a strong inspirational voice says… We must have more faith in God. God will come through. We will go from house to house with the dead baby. We will declare her life as we march. Yes! Yes, that must be right. But someone still has doubt. Is it right to move a dead body. Someone we all respect… tell me… are you sure God will raise baby Faith from the dead. I trust you. Ok.
After 15 hours. The exhaustion. The pain. The fear. Why would God abandon us? I don’t know what to do. Someone’s comforting voice says, It’s over. It is time to call the police. More fear… What do we say? How do we explain 15 hours? Someone says. The truth and God will redeem us.
Moses- Who’s voices do you hear in your head? Which voices where the motivational ones? Which voices were the doubting ones?
By Sean Morris’ own published audio of baby Faith’s funeral. The COW sin was not having enough faith in God to perform a miracle.
The idea that lack of faith were the sin that Sean Morris identified, means that someone had to be repeatedly motivational with the goal of convincing 50 adults to spend 15 hours believing God would raise baby Faith from the dead. Someone had to convince 50 people to overcome their fear and their doubt.
Who’s voice was that?
Would it have been someone else other than 3 the elders?
What words did they say to convince 50 intelligent people that God will raise baby Faith from the dead?
What words did they say to convince 50 intelligent people to do something that adult in America knows… Don’t move a dead body. And you call the police when you have a dead body.
Moses- Just as you do, the other members, respect the elders as True Prophets. Wouldn’t a True Prophet have gotten a Word from the Lord and spoken it?
I know that you were not there. And neither was I. But what is harder to believe.
– The elders did not tell the members that God would heal baby Faith or raise her from the dead.
or
– The elders did tell the members that God would head baby Faith and raise her from the dead.
A True Prophet would not have failed this test.
Amen Micah68!
And from the audio you supplied for us to listen Mr. Moses, Sean said ” we are ashamed and buried in our shame”
Moses,
With all due respect, I believe you have no idea what you’re talking about. Your previous posts are full of contradictions. I believe you are so emotionally invested in your daughter’s newfound membership within this group that you have completely turned off your reason. That’s quite a shame, for God gave you an incredible mind that has done amazing things in your area of research. Tarka, in Hindi, means Logic. Let’s try and keep that in mind for the remainder of this thread.
I’d like to point out a few areas where you state one thing, then contradict it later.
First, I’ll take your reply to me and my salvation story.
Your first reply said:
“I do not know why your testimony was not authenticated by the Church of Wells members. All I can say is that they are very meticulous and thorough in their righteous judgment, because the implications are one of eternal life, or eternal death, so they will not affirm a person’s salvation when they see the fruits of unrepentant, willful sin.”
So, you’ve clearly acknowledged that COW must authenticate salvation. You also point out that the implications of COW’s judgement are of “life and death.” So basically, COW holds the keys to my eternal freedom? But you’ve been called out. The next day you give a different response in the same thread. Let’s take a look.
“God is the one who will authenticate our faith… Ultimately, Tarka is accountable to God, and not to the Church of Wells… but ultimately, it is God who will judge”
So Moses, which is it? If you weren’t aware, it’s the Holy Spirit who authenticates my faith. It is the deposit of the Holy Spirit that seals me; not some “righteous judgement” from COW.
You have stated many times that we need to “hear their side of the story” or “talk to them directly.” Here are few of your statements:
“Micah68 should hear their account of the story. I am confident that he will be blessed to hear it, if he goes with an open mind.”
Another post…
“God would hate your lies if you were wrong in your conclusions based upon hearing witnesses from only one side. The correct protocol is to hear both sides of the story. Please be fair and request a hearing from the elders of the church if you are keen on making such a vicious stand against the people of God.”
These statements made me laugh. COW did, in fact, provide their side of the story in the form of a memorial service broadcast online. They told reporters and all concerned individuals that it was their official statement on the matter and that they would offer no further comment. There is also a wealth of information on their website in the form of blogs, position papers, and public rebukes. All of those postings are COW’s attempts and opportunities to “tell their side of the story.” And guess what? We vigilantly follow them and are aware of them. Yet, they refuse to tell us more when asked.
Additionally, as I have stated earlier, a lot of us have been dancing this dance for many years. Do you have any idea how many conversations were requested? Do you have any idea how many concerned parents and friends just wanted to sit down with their loved one to have a discussion? How about the reporters requesting interviews? COW has had SO many times to tell “their side” of the story, yet they balk every time. To say that we are blindly making these claims without consulting COW first is ridiculous.
Let’s look at the Grove controversy. All the family wanted was to simply talk to their daughter in person. They were open and honest that they just wanted to hear her out. Yet, COW would not allow it. What about the recent TV stories that sent reporters to Wells to simply talk to members for their perspectives on various issues? COW was told not to reply to them. You make it sound like COW is willing and open to talk to whomever, whenever, yet their actions clearly indicate otherwise.
Let’s chat about this for a second…
“God will give you peace when your sin(s) are forgiven through the blood of Christ.”
Yep. This happened on the Cross of Calvary; not upon my review by COW. I have my peace from Him – if I don’t have the approval from COW, I won’t lose sleep at night. Please find me some scripture that says I require their approval (or the approval of anyone/anything other than the Holy Spirit).
Next, your information about the death of baby Faith seems to be all over the place. You’ve decided to act as the unofficial spokes-person for COW and this issue, yet you were not around during the time of the tragedy.
“It was not God’s will for this child to live, and He took her to be with Himself. Love in Christ, Moses.”
What about the direct quote in the audio file during Faith’s memorial service when COW stated “we did not have enough faith.” So… was it God’s will as you are stating, or was it that God truly wanted this child to live, but the elders did not have enough faith? Your statements on their behalf are contradicting information that they have already provided.
This conversation needs to move back in the direction of Baby Faith. I am not naive to the fact that COW is probably diligently following this thread. We know how they operate. The best idea as we move forward is for COW to step up and answer some of the questions put forth.
If Cory and Sean are as blameless and zealous as they make themselves out to be, then why aren’t they standing up and giving a response? Do you realize how COWardly it makes them seem? Surely they cannot be true men of God if they cannot stand in front of the masses and give account of their actions.
If they truly believe that we “have not heard their side” – now is their chance to tell it.
It’s your move.
**Sean, Ryan, Jake. I forgot Cory was not an elder, but let’s hear from him too! In fact, we’d be happy and willing to hear from ANYONE at this point. That is, anyone directly affiliated with the COW community in Wells. Moses needs to stop acting as the unofficial spokesperson.***
Ezekiel 29:1-16 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
5 And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.
6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the Lord, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.
7 When they took hold of thee by thy hand, thou didst break, and rend all their shoulder: and when they leaned upon thee, thou brakest, and madest all their loins to be at a stand.
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee.
9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the Lord: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it.
10 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia.
11 No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.
12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.
13 Yet thus saith the Lord God; At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered:
14 And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
15 It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.
16 And it shall be no more the confidence of the house of Israel, which bringeth their iniquity to remembrance, when they shall look after them: but they shall know that I am the Lord God.
Great. Now how about an actual reply with your own words and thoughts instead of an out of context scripture? This isn’t the scripture buffet – you can pick and choose what to put on your spiritual plate.
Everyone-
What everyone has just witnessed is a cult mind control technique called Mental Blocking.
This is the equivalent to a child covering up their ears, moving their head left/right to say no, and repeating loudly “I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you”
A Mental Block happens when a cult member is confronted with something that they are not equipped to handle or that they don’t have permission to handle. Sometimes the Mental Blocks are triggered by an emotional response or facts that contradict what they have been taught.
The COW would likely give it a spiritual sounding name other than Mental Block, but the members are still being taught the same Mental Block techniques that other cults have used effectively. Some of the Mental Blocks we have witnessed with the COW are:
– Quoting a random Bible verse that clearly has nothing to do with the subject and no actual explanation for how it applies to the subject. (Similar to what Moses just did.)
– Repeating the same Bible verse or some other Spiritual or Inspirational phrase over and over (Similar to chanting)
– Issuing a judgmental, accusatory, or manipulation statement and storming out. (Similar to how children/teens just storm out and get the last word and slam the door, and sometimes that last word is an attempt to make you feel guilty.)
– Letting an elder speak on your behalf. (Similar to how Catherine is on Video constantly looking at an elder to speak for her and how Moses sometimes gets Sean Morris to speak for him, like in the Set the Captives Free comments.)
What do you do when someone puts up their Mental Block protection wall?
(It is necessary to briefly pause, ask yourself how to get around the block, and switch up the methods your using.)
I urge everyone to study more information about Cult Mind Control techniques and what do with about them.
Steven Hassan is a cult exit counselor. He was in a cult and got out of it through his parents hiring an exit counseling service. After he got out he decided he would switch careers and he became a cult exit counselor also. He has written several books and does seminars to teach people how to recognize when someone is having mind control techniques done to them. He teaches both mental health professionals and parents/friends different methods for getting people out of cults. He has several videos that are several hours long showing portion of his seminars about how to get people out of cults. There are lots of videos available free both on his website and on youtube. Plus he has several books on the subject.
Steven Hassan’s website is https://www.freedomofmind.com/
– Click Media, Videos
I am not an expert. Just like all of you, I am learning as we go.
I am confident that God will shake the COW to its core and set the captives free.
Matthew 26:59-75
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Fascinating, Moses. Quite fascinating.
So, if I understand you correctly, you’re equating the resistance YOU are facing from us to Peter’s denial of Christ. In other words, by our curiosity and opposition to you, we are denying Christ? That’s quite a stretch.
That’s a bold statement there sir.
I could say the same thing back to you. What does scripture have to say about the lies, deception, and secrecy of COW?
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace to the hearers.
Zephaniah 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds;
Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
Proverbs 13:5 A righteous man hates lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and comes to shame.
Proverbs 14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
How about we look for what scripture says about confronting those that ask questions of you and would like to talk like adults?
1 Pet 3:15: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.
Your implication that I am denying Christ because I disagree with you shows me without a shadow of a doubt that you have (as you call it) righteously judged me. You have (wrongfully) judged me as unsaved.
Do you know my heart? Have you seen the Holy Spirit in my life? Do you even know who I am? All I am to you, sir, is a bit of text and and a clever username on a screen. You have absolutely no justification to judge me by three postings on a message board.
How dare you. Your hasty judgement and lack of understanding will be your (and COW’s) undoing.
Wake up sir, and drink more than the spiritual milk meant for babies.
Dear Moses.
I appreciate your attempts at responding, but by responding this way with scripture, you are only solidifying the response of Micah68 above. Please respond in your own words. We can all respond with scripture as you do, but that wouldn’t get us anywhere now would it?
Scripture posted in internet comments, on their own websites, in the context of unavoidable and unmistakable comparison of themselves to Jesus and the apostles. Makes the reader wonder if one should take it that way and if they really mean it. When it’s called out, they neither confirm nor deny. Which means it’s deliberate.
Moses-
Let’s try something different.
Can you explain who Zane Hodges is?
You have repeated yourself many times on how you disagree with him on a doctrinal issue.
But most people have never even heard of Zane Hodges in the 1st place.
Who is he?
Where did he get his credentials? Where did he preach?
How did you hear about him?
What convinced you that he was preaching bad doctrine?
Exactly how do you think Zane Hodges fits into things?
When I piece small bits of this story together,
My understanding is that Zane Hodges wrote a commentary on the book of 1 John. Then a lay person volunteer for a small group Bible study at your former church happened to use the Zane Hodges commentary as one of the resources when studying 1 John.
This appears to be the catalyst for your entire family to have a conflict with your church. You could not convince anyone at your church that Zane Hodges was bad. So you leave your church, then you to start your own church, and then you connect with the COW.
It is all kind of confusing.
Without being preachy… Can you simply describe what happened, how it happened and what order it happened?
Was Zane Hodges before of after anyone in your family started talking to Chris Faulkner or anyone else from the COW?
It is hard for you to have credibility if people cannot understand your story.
Can you share some details without getting preaching or getting accusatory of everyone here?
Read an interesting well-written article by Zane Hodges here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fjournal%2F2009i%2FZane-7%20Legalism%20The%20Real%20Thing.pdf&docid=04670ed59fa12f3e63ab013c7bc285c0&a=bi&pagenumber=11&w=864
Legalism: The Real Thing. Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society. Spring 2009.
I don’t know why this is significant to Church of Wells and/or Moses David.
Guest-
Some of us have been involved with the COW dance for years.
Personally, I have spent hundreds of hours sifting through this:
– The COW produce endless mountains of content that simply cannot be sorted through quickly.
– Moses has been in numerous debates with all kinds of people and sometimes, Moses even brings in Sean Morris himself into the debates.
– Zane Hodges does indeed have something to do with Moses’ family. Moses has been debating the Zane Hodges angle for almost 2 years.
– Paul Washer is another preacher that has something to do with Moses’ family as well as most of the COW members.
– Chris Faulkner is another person that has something to do with Moses’ family as well as most of the COW members.
– Moses’ daughter, Preethi, married Sean Morris, the leader of the COW.
– Preethi has produced some very shocking content on her blog, which appears to be another semi-official COW website.
– This stuff is all connected. The conversations go in circles because outsiders don’t know all the details. But outsiders also cannot figure out the details without investing hundreds of hours.
– I think it is very reasonable to make an attempt to understand the details for how Moses, the most outspoken public defender of the COW, actually got connected with the COW.
– I think for Moses, it started with 1-2 years ago when Moses went on a very public Zane Hodges rant… Or did it start earlier?
Moses-
I look forward to your response.
Micah,
Guest has been following the “dance” for well over 2 years. I don’t understand either what Zane Hodges has to do with CoW and why Moses keeps throwing it out there.
I don’t know why this is significant to Church of Wells and/or Moses David.
An informative eulogy to Zane Hodges.
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/11/zane-hodges-1933%E2%80%932008/
Dear All, The following post by Preethi was written approximately a year before she came into contact with the Church of Wells. An important person of the church started using Zane Hodges guide for 1 John to teach this doctrine in a Bible Study group. We brought this up with the church leadership and tried to work with them for about nine months to resolve the issue. The smaller group of elders and the main pastor accused Preethi of bearing false testimony and denying that this was ever taught in spite of the several proofs we had furnished to them. Love in Christ, Moses.
http://proclaimedfromtherooftop.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-free-grace-theology.html
In case I am being mis-understood.
Sometimes, the debate style cannot go any further and we simply get stuck. We probably will not convince Moses with just the right zinger phrase during a debate. We are probably successful in giving confidence to others that cannot exactly word what is wrong, but they know that something is wrong.
There are several of us that are fully capable of going head to head with Moses and we have done well at this. I am always amazed that Moses is willing to take on like a 10:1 ratio in these debates. Sometimes it can get pretty intense.
As described by the cult exist counselors, you reach a point with debate style conversations where the cult member literally cannot hear anything you say. They simply tune it out with their Mind Block technique.
We may have reached that point with Moses. So what do we do now?
When the cult exit counselors hit a mind block, they briefly pause and switch the conversation up.
And so… What is a good topic to get past the impasse we are stuck on. If Moses is not responding to our COW debate style points, then what?
Maybe, he would be willing to talk about something just a little less directly confrontational, but at the same time something that he is still personally passionate about.
I understand that you probably question, why on earth did I pick Zane Hodges? I picked it because Moses is passionate about it and there is a connection.
If you want to understand the mind of someone who joins the COW, then it might be important to understand the items that Moses’ family was wrestling with during the months following up to his family joining the COW.
Zane Hodges is exactly what Moses’ family was wrestling with. I don’t see any other COW members currently sharing specific clues about what was going on in their mind just before they joined. But Moses has hinted at some clues related to Zane Hodges. And to date, no one has actually pursued more about this angle.
I understand that pushing hard on COW specific doctrines is what everyone wants to do. But currently Moses stopped talking.
If we are actually done, then there is no further point to keeping the comments open.
If Moses actually wanted to engage again, then what ideas does anyone else have for getting him back engaged?
As for me… Why not talk about something that never made sense to begin with? Why not talk about the very issue that caused Moses’ entire family to leave his church of 20 years and join the COW?
How can this not be relevant?
To get you up to speed on Zane Hodges and specifically what the doctrinal connection is to Moses and the COW is: This church website is very anti Zane Hodges and have produced material to explain their view. You will see that the doctrinal issue is all about whether a Christian can lose their Salvation. This is amazingly similar to the same discussion we been having with Moses.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesho.htm
Now, we either invite Moses back into the discussion or we move on and wait until a different article with open comments is created.
Moses- I am open for your engagement to explain without being preachy or accusatory, what was happening during the time you were wrestling with the Zane Hodges commentary. What items were going on when you decided re-evaluate your entire beliefs.
Moses-
Welcome back. Thank you for being cordial. I will comment further later tonight.
This article by Lamar Hankins is about the death of baby faith : how it happened ; why it happened ; should someone be held responsible for the death of baby faith ; why hasn’t anyone been held responsible ; where do we go now for those that care that a child lost its life and the apparent lack of proper law enforcement on May 18th the night a young woman attempted to runaway again and once again law enforcement apparently did not intervene on this young woman’s behalf. The purpose I think of this article is to expose : Exploitation Abuse Repression that is going on in Wells, Texas and how it is being seemingly shoved under the carpet with no recourse. Doctrinal issues about faith are irrelevant. Abuse exploitation and repression of people no matter what their age should be illegal. When people are abused exploited and repressed for the advantage of others is horrific …. Lets talk about that ……
I agree with the poster before me. Faith, theology, doctrine, etc. are not the real issues here; psychological abuse, undue influence, brainwashing, etc. are the issues. This is a human rights and human trafficking issue. It is a spiritual abuse, psychological abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse, perhaps even physical and sexual abuse and exploitation issue. The focus should be responding to the points that Mr. Hankins so articulately made in this article about the CoW leaders’ criminal activity and the criminal activity of law enforcement officers. It should be about what is wrong in this country that claims to uphold one’s right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness as what is going on in the Church of Wells directly interferes with and prevents/represses these “unalienable” human rights from happening. This is not an issue of the Body of Christ disagreeing. This is an issue of the sociopathic leaders of a cult using religion to torture their victims. Maybe those interested should research the UK Home Office’s current law reform campaign calling for psychological abuse to be criminalized. (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/344674/Strengthening_the_law_on_Domestic_Abuse_-_A_Consultation_WEB.PDF ) Law enforcement not intervening is not upholding religious freedom; it is enabling the destruction of it. Coercing people using mind control tactics for the leaders’ own clear gain and sick pleasure is dead wrong. The victims are trauma bonded (a term to look up for anyone who doesn’t fully understand “why they stay” and why anyone stays in any abusive environment for that matter) although as Mr. Hankins illustrates, despite the leaders’ enormously destructive control tactics, a young woman did try to escape twice that we know of. Let’s discuss the real issues at hand here and not get distracted by debates that don’t address that a child lost her life and countless others are being ruined.
Moses
Your comment has not added anything new.
There is no confusion about what doctrine you disagree with.
The confusion is about how a Zane Hodges commentary on 1 John connected you to the cow.
Most people have never heard of Zane Hodges before. I suspect you and Preethi had not heard of him before that Bible study.
I suspect that Preethi was in communication with Chris Faulkner or someone else connected with the cow at the same time as she was going through the 1st John study.
Remember Chris Faulkner the man you trusted well enough for you appoint as an elder for your home church you started just a few months later. The same Chris Faulkner that was the cow deacon. The same Chris Faulkner that traveled from Texas to Minnesota just to influence your family.
It is no coincidence that Chris Faulkner came around the same time you were wrestling with the idea Christians can lose their salvation.
I suspect the cow recruitment efforts of Preethi started many months earlier than you know.
You see. It is part of the cow recruitment strategy. I suspect your family may have been targeted for recruitment.
Can you shed some light on this without being preachy or accusatory?
Dear Guest, Micah68, Lorayne, Tarka and TruthSeeker,
Are you all on the side of Mr.Harkins, who has labeled Cory’s statement below as “delusional thinking?”
Cory assured him that everyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have a relationship with Him will burn forever in Hell, whether or not they have heard the Christian message.
Love in Christ,
Moses.
Are there sides?
I’m on Baby Faith’s side.
According to your theology and doctrine, this baby can’t go to heaven.
When preachers, church leadership and parents hold beliefs like this, they interfere with salvation by withholding medical care. The worldly, man-made adult decisions that cause death, doom babies and children to hell.
This group’s test of their own faith and resurrection skills made the choice for this baby.
You can’t have it both ways – either the innocent get to go to heaven anyway, or you have an ultimate responsibility to see them live long enough to get saved according to your rules. You do not get to shorten their lives.
I agree with Guest. After conversing with COW members about children and salvation, it was stated by them that children are not saved. I was confused when I heard Sean’s statement about Faith being with Jesus. According to their beliefs about heaven, she is not there! Maybe that is why Sean said “we are ashamed. We are buried in shame”!
You asked me if I was on Mr. Hankins side. Then you referred to one statement by him which had NOTHING to do with 98% of his article which was about Faith. You completely disregard the whole purpose of his article to pick out one sentence about how Mr. Hankins felt his interaction went with Corey. My side or opinion is about what happened to Faith and how it is being handled by CCSO and the DA. What Lamar writes about how he feels about his conversation with Corey has nothing to do with the root of the matter. Mr. Hankins wrote a well researched article about the death of Faith and how the matter has been handled by law enforcement. Do all COW members all think and believe the same about the death of Faith? Are they all in agreement with and on the “side” of how it was handled by COW elders and the Pursleys? Is there not one single adult in COW who might think the baby should have been taken to the ER? Sure they might but would never say. Can you truly tell me that out of 50 or so adults with many young children and new babies under their experience belts, not one person thought during the 3 days Faith was suffering, maybe she needs to be taken to the doctor for a check up? If none of them did that only further confirms to me they are no longer able to think for themselves or have an opinion of their own. Lamar reported facts that were well researched and included personal opinion in regards to his interactions with COW and others. I am on the side of justice. I want justice for Faith. And you should to.
Dear Moses, why did you leave me out ? The point is the point of this exposing light-shedding article is : that murder is murder ; child-neglect is child-neglect ; manslaughter is manslaughter ; abuse is abuse … it doesn’t matter what religious faith you are. The definitions are still the same no matter your name your faith your country your title. The fact is that in this country of the great USA that Christians or believers or non-believers or who ever you are don’t get excused don’t get a pass on the earth for murder child-neglect manslaughter or child abuse. The question is IS WHY HASNT SOMEONE BEEN HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE NEEDLESS DEATH OF LITTLE BABY FAITH PURSLEY … who is protecting them … It’s not God that’s a FACT … But be assured They will stand before a Judge someday that’s a FACT.
From what I read, the Pursleys didn’t have a lot of time to react, to thier babys condition.Lots of babys don’t eat right away,even at medical facilitys, they are not concerened if they don’t nurse right away. All of my children, had a bluish tint to hands and feet the first few days..somewhere I read faith passed in a matter of minutes, could you imagine how crushed they were to losing their precious baby!!! I would be ashamed to say, the nasty things I’ve heard a lot of people saying. So honestly, what was so wrong with praying for God to bring her back??? All things are possible with God. I even read in my bible, that greater things would be done..because Jesus went to the Father. Somebody on here said, every one knows not to move a body, and to call the athoritys. I never knew that!! This was their child, they loved her, and wanted her with them..I think after all their tears, and prayers they knew..this was Gods will and even in this tragedy death had no sting..they will be with faith again!! Can’t you guys see how cruel this is to this young family, you are reopening a wound by these unfounded insults.
I don’t know Moses, or the church of wells personally, but I have witnessed so many insults, and cruel words toward them. Even the letter, that Ryan wrote around the protest..I think it may. It was kind, and from his heart, but people were just mean! I try listening to both sides, I know a lot of people are missing their grown children, but acting like this and saying they are in a cult, will not bring them back. I can’t believe, folks are even saying Moses is now brainwashed..just because he is now speaking for, instead of against this church as he once did. I won’t lie, I have a few questions about this church, because of internet things I read. Is there truly a prayer closet, that gets locked? Did Catherine get thrown in a jeep, and is being forced to stay against her will? Or is that just what people want us to believe, when truly this is a church of God. I don’t know, but I would not spread false things, without knowing all of the facts. I will just keep praying, for Gods truth to go forth, and for him to reveal who is telling the truth.
There was even a post on here, about Preethi calling her husband lord and master…but I’m pretty sure Sarah in the bible said that about her husband Abraham. So I’m not sure, that that would be wrong, since its Gods word given for our example, and not man’s!
I am not interested in theological debate and I have no intention or desire to change anyone’s spiritual beliefs and religion. I am interested in understanding why people hold the beliefs they do. Whether or not I agree with those beliefs is irrelevant.
Yes, newborns don’t always nurse right away. Most do, though. [It’s important to be careful to put out correct information about this.] When a baby doesn’t, the standard is that successful feeding becomes a medical priority. The American Academy of Pediatrics says: initiate nursing within 1 hour of birth; 5 ml every 2-3 hours, 8-12 times in 24 hours. 24-48 hours after birth, it increases to 10 ml. At 48 hours, baby needs 15 ml every 2 to 3 hours, at least 8 times in 24 hours. With hospital and midwife births, how the baby is feeding is logged each shift. You might not have been aware that the nurses monitor and report. If you were bottle-feeding, the nurses probably fed baby for you.
Babies don’t just naturally nurse; they usually need help learning how. And they must nurse right away to trigger nature for an adequate milk supply. If a breast-fed baby hasn’t latched on by 12 hours, they schedule a follow-up with a provider. It is not okay or “normal” if a baby doesn’t nurse. Especially so in a home birth. A midwife is responsible for ensuring that the baby is nursing. In an unattended birth, it’s critical that parents are well-informed and prudent, since there’s no one else there.
These parents had three days to react to a sick baby that couldn’t nurse. They did react. They decided to do nothing. They are responsible for the outcome, no different than you and I. What would you have done differently?
I would expect these parents would have been “crushed” under different circumstances. But the three young preachers minimized, saying she <wasn't dead, that “she lives.” This group openly talks about death in a frivolous way, because they’ll get to join Jesus. You can read it for yourself. Ask them directly.
I didn’t say, nor do I believe, that Moses is “brainwashed.” (In fact, I don’t use that word at all.) I believe Moses was predisposed to these young men’s doctrine; it suits him and is a good fit. Why? I couldn’t know and his spirituality is his own concern. Where it interfaces with me, is that because his daughter married into this group, he now answers authoritatively for the CoW preachers, specifically about the matter of this baby’s death.
I appreciate that you commented. These are serious issues and deserve conversation.
It’s one thing to see a “blue-ish” baby (that could mean so many different things), when that baby was born in a hospital, birthing center, or home birth attended by a credentialed experienced midwife. It’s a given that the newborn is evaluated head-to-toe, including vital signs (listening to heart tones and observing respirations) at a minimum. And then monitored and observed continuously over a period of time.
It’s an entirely different thing when a baby is born unattended and has had no assessment and physical exam by a knowledgeable person. In that circumstance, you’d have no information to know if a “bluish tint” is okay or a cause for alarm and needs to be evaluated.
Each birth and each newborn is different. There are many many variables taken into consideration – prenatal history, course of pregnancy, the birth event itself, how long, maternal health, risk factors, etc.
All birth attendants (from medical to midwives to trained laypersons) know what an APGAR score is and have some notion on how to apply it.
APGAR is a quick test performed on a baby at 1 and 5 minutes after birth. Each observation is scored 0 to 2:
• Breathing effort
• Heart rate (by stethoscope)
• Muscle tone
• Reflexes
• Skin color
It’s done to determine whether a newborn needs help breathing or is having heart trouble.
A ’10’ is unusual, even for perfect births and healthy babies. Any score lower than 7 is a sign that the baby needs medical attention. The lower the score, the more help the baby needs to adjusting outside the mother’s womb. Anything lower than 4 needs prompt, lifesaving measures.
Never compare one newborn to another without genuine evaluation. It is not uncommon for healthy babies to be a bit “blueish” after delivery. But it’s critical to first determine that the baby IS healthy.
Moses-
The idea that Cory would try to convert a reporter/attorney that is actually there to investigate the COW for the murder of a child is closer to what I consider and example of lack of sound judgment.
Knowing when it is appropriate to talk to someone about Christ is an important skill that the COW does not seem to have a good handle on.
You should know this. Moses, you have a phd, you work for a large company and you work with a large number of people. Do you actually do your job when you talk to them, or are you telling them they are all going to hell instead of doing your job.
Telling people about Christ actually does require respecting the boundaries of time, place, authority, and influence. The influence of Cory’s words towards a news reporter that is investigating the COW for murder basically drops down to nothing because Cory is a member of the COW. This is the same reason that your words have less and less influence because you have chosen to be connected with the COW.
The COW has a credibility problem caused from their own words and their own actions.
When the COW tries to speak the truth of accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior, it will fall on deaf ears because the COW has a credibility problem.
When the COW tries to explain the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, it will fall on deaf ears because the COW has a credibility problem.
The people the COW have the most credibility with are the ones that already believe what they believe.
You are losing the mission of the Great Commission because the COW has a credibility problem. You have very little credibility with people that don’t already agree with you.
Now, I am seriously interested in what you have to say about how your family was recruited.
I believe one COW recruitment method is done by establishing friendships with people they met at conferences like the Paul Washer conferences. Then after meeting someone they start feeding sermons that slowly move someone towards their beliefs. Your family went to a Paul Washer conference also. Who did Preethi meet there that was associated with the COW? Who was she discussing the Zane Hodges commentary with that was influencing her. I believe it was someone associated with the COW.
I don’t think these people understand that discretion and boundaries come from God.
God made them in His own image. Human beings have the capacity to think and process and evaluate. That is God’s design.
Critical thinking skills are a gift from God.
Interesting. Moses will voluntarily post for Church of Wells, but won’t answer direct questions about himself and his beliefs. Why is that?
“It is by spiritual pride that the mind defends and justifies itself in other errors and defends itself against light by which it might be corrected and reclaimed. The spiritually proud man thinks he is full of light already and feels that he does not need instruction, so he is ready to ignore the offer of it.
On the other hand, the humble person is like a little child who easily receives instruction. He is cautious in his estimate of himself, sensitive as to how liable he is to go astray. If it is suggested to him that he is going astray, he is most ready to check into the matter…If spiritual pride is healed, other things are easily corrected. Our first care should be to correct the heart and pull the beam of pride out of our eye and then we shall see clearly.” Jonathan Edwards
Amen to that!
Micah68, you are so very right! The more COW keeps acting the way they do the more it is hurting the testimony of Jesus Christ for the unbelieving ears. However for believers they have lost all credibility and we can only pray for their complete downfall so that they will see their errors and deception in leading many astray. May God receive the glory in all this!
A new “Guest.”
Amen! Here is another applicable quote:
“It has been the manner of spiritually proud persons to speak of almost everything they see in others in the most harsh, severe language. It is frequent with them to say of other’s opinion, conduct, advice, coldness, silence, caution, moderation, prudence, etc. that they are from the devil or from hell.
Such kind of language they will commonly use, not only towards wicked men, but towards those who are true children of God and also towards ministers of the gospel and others who are very much their superiors. Christians who are but fellow-worms ought at least to treat one another with as much humility and gentleness as Christ treats them.” Jonathan Edwards
Problem:
First, their God is vindictive and vengeful. Condemning. Brutal. Scary and frightening. So they are treating others in keeping with that idea. For everyone’s own good, because everyone is deceived and believes God (and Jesus) is something kind, gentle and benevolent.
Second, they’ve redefined love to mean something other than the standard definition. To love means to punish and scold.
From Moses facebook page:
For they do not know that they are rejoicing in the robbing of the infant, father, and mother alike, of the privilege to earn a living through the labor of their hands. The R&R Mercantile Store and Gas Station which served as the main business for the Church of Wells members was closed through the boycott of the local people, triggered by the unrighteous slander of a few unhappy parents.
Men affected: 35
Women affected: 29 (including Catherine Grove)
Babies and children affected: 49
Unborn babies affected: 10
Now, lets digest. Jacob tells us through television interviews that the Church of Wells does not support the members, each have their own lives, jobs and bank accounts. So, if this is true are you telling me that because a small town convenience store closed it is going to put 113 people on the streets hungry or 64 adults out of work? Do we really think 64 people worked there and were relying on the RR for income?
He says “robbing them of the privilege to earn a living through the labor of their hands” as in Catherine Grove actually ever worked or received income from the RR? Have any of the 29 women ever worked at the RR and received wages? You see, on one account we are told the Church of Wells does not support the families, they are all self sufficient with their own income and jobs, but yet one small little store gets shut down and now all of a sudden the entire church membership is going to go hungry.
Will Moses delete his facebook post when he realizes how much it contradicts the statements made in the past? Time will tell.
PS, the store closed because it was God’s will, not because of unrighteous slander.
Dear Lorayne, I was blessed, and honored to meet your daughter during my visit there! Regarding your question above, the women and the babies do not have to work at the R&R to suffer, because the wages of their husbands and fathers benefits them, and they are robbed of these benefits when they lose their work. Even if their husbands, or fathers do not work there, they love they love their affected church members and care for them to provide for the needs of the affected families, so the entire church suffers when the breadwinners of many families are affected. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses, as I have clarified on the other article I highly doubt you have met my daughter. My daughter is not in Wells so please don’t confuse me with someone else just because we may have the same name.
Stop talking in circles. How does a single female who does not work and has not worked in 15 months support herself? Who is supporting her? Jake tells us the Church members al support their own families with their own jobs and bank accounts. I would like to know a real answer. If you can’t give us a straight truthful answer without talking in circles then don’t bother. Surely as a working man you can communicate in plain simple Q&A. You must experience this in the workplace.
Please tell us how the single women living in Wells are supported?
If Church members do not covet money and believe firmly in God’s ability to give them everything they need why do they sign up for government foodstamps?
Neither Sean or Preethi have an income producing job- how do they pay their light bill, water bill, car insurance, cell phone, internet, groceries, personal hygiene items, etc. Basic needs. Do not tell me God provides. That is not the real answer.
While you may say this is none of our business it is because they have made statements and claims to the public each family supports themselves with jobs and personal bank accounts- and that no, the Church is not supporting them. So prove it- prove Jake was telling the truth. It really shouldn’t be that hard to just tell the truth and be transparent financially.
You see it’s the fact they won’t be transparent, they dance around questions, they won’t open up and be honest to basic questions. I have asked the above basic questions- they should be very easy to answer with a truthful honest answer that can be backed up by material facts.
I look forward to your reply.
Hello COW friends. It’s your old pal and harbinger of cynicism, AG3. I hear you’ve acquired some property in Alto. Planning a move huh? A pilgrimage to the promised land? Maybe an opportunity to rebrand and start over? Good for you. God speed on your journey 10 minutes down the road. Surely they’ll have NO idea who you are in this age of rapid information sharing…
I just thought you should know that I have already purchased the domain names for all variations of churchofalto.com. It was the best $30 I have spent.
I’ll happily give them to you if you meet a few of my demands. You know how to reach me.
Love, AG3
You rock, AG3
AMEN! It is definitely an answer to many prayers.
Dear Guest,
Psalm 10:12,13 I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and the right of the poor. Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence.
Love in Christ,
Moses.
The more I search, the more I see how off they are:
“Another thing I would beg the dear children of God more fully to consider of, is, how far, and upon what grounds, the rules of the Holy Scriptures will truly justify their passing censures upon other professing Christians, as hypocrites, and ignorant of real religion. We all know that there is a judging and censuring of some sort or other, that the Scripture very often and very strictly forbids. I desire that those rules of Scripture may be looked into, and thoroughly weighed; and that it may be considered whether our taking it upon us to discern the state of other and to pass sentence upon them as wicked men, though professing Christians, and of a good visible conversation—be not really forbidden by Christ in the New Testament” Jonathan Edwards
1 Peter 4:16-19
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Lamar Hankins will be my guest on Rag Radio this Friday, Sept.12, from 2-3 p.m. (CDT) on KOOP 91.7-FM in Austin and streamed live on the Internet. On the show we will discuss issues raised in this article. Go here for more information including other stations and times.
Any chance of a podcast?
Podcast: The Rag Blog’s Lamar W Hankins discusses Wells Church scandal on Rag Radio
On the dishonoring of parents which is rampant in this group this is what their esteemed Jonathan Edwards has to say…
“I shall now apply myself to children, Let them examine themselves, whether they do not live in some way of sin towards their parents. Are you not guilty of some undutifulness towards them in which you allow yourselves? Are you not guilty of despising your parents for infirmities which you see in them? Undutiful children are ready to condemn their parents for their infirmities. Are you not sons of Ham who saw and made derision of his nakedness whereby he entailed a curse on himself and his posterity to this day, and not the sons of Shem and Japeth who covered the nakedness of their father. Are you not guilty of despising your parents for natural infirmities or those of old age? Proverbs Xxiii 22. Despise not thy mother when she is old. Doth not that curse belong to you in Deut. Xxvii 16. Cursed is he that setteth light by his father or his mother….
Do you allow yourself a fretful disposition with your parents when they cross you in anything? Are you not apt to find fault with your parents and be out of temper with them?
Consider that, if you live in such ways as these, you not only live in sin, but in that sin, than which there is scarcely any one other threatened with a curse in the word of God.”
Christian Cautions from The Works of Jonathan Edwards
Has anybody seen Catherine? Would someone in that group have the decency to contact her family that truly loves her and misses her. Everyday they wake up with an unimaginable ache, void, pain of loss ~ there are no words that can truly describe what they must feel. “Church of Wells” how repulsing it is to even write those words. “church” ~ absolutely not!
The news of a woman’s body found on hwy 69, and the reality of Catherine running away and trying to leave and NO HELP from Cherokee County officials. The death of Baby Faith ….PLEASE SOMEONE ~ WHERE IS CATHERINE? Come on Moses ~ what if is were your daughter?
It washis daughter.
It was his option to capitulate and do it their way. It wasn’t much of a stretch for him because he’s immersed in “true church” philosophy anyway. It isn’t difficult for him to understand what they want because he shares the same/similar beliefs.
Just wondering, they are not the only parents who wake up with unimaginable ache and pain of loss…
Anon, please, I am so sorry and you are absolutely right that the Groves are not the only ones! After listening to the Rag radio broadcast, Catherine was heavy on my mind.
Dear Just Wondering, I heard that there was a welfare check on Catherine by the police a few days ago. You can check with them on how Catherine is doing, since no one seems to believe the insider reports about Catherine. Love in Christ, Moses.
I appreciate the response and I also read on Pray for Catherine’s page that the CCSO finally confirmed to the Grove’s that the dead woman’s body was NOT Catherine. Isn’t is STRANGE how a friend or family member cannot pick up a phone OR write a letter (there is no address) to Catherine and ask her herself how she is doing or can we meet for lunch ~ I’ve missed you. CoW has cut her off from all she knew and loved. Yes, CoW they move as ONE EVIL unit.
Dear Just Wondering, I think Catherine might have more of an inclination to talk to her parents if they were not so against the church family that she has become a part of, and one that she loves dearly. I am praying that God will unite her family with Catherine soon in Godly terms. Love in Christ, Moses.
Well Moses…I think when you are talking about a dead body on the side of the road it is neither here nor there if you are on the same spiritual path as you parents. It is not that hard to pick up the phone, call and say hey, I’m alive. I don’t want to talk to you about anything else but I am not lying in a ditch dead. So the fact Catherine has not still concerns me. And it should you to. I do not give a darn how I feel about my mother or if she thinks my new found religion is the best thing ever. I love her and came to life in her body and I would let her know if I was ALIVE OR DEAD. And now, a message from someone in COW saying she is ok is not valid proof. Tell your boy you aren’t sending him any more $$ unless Catherine calls personally from an unmonitored phone to tell her parents she is alive. Then I will have respect for you.
What reason would the sheriff’s office have to think of her with respect to discovery of this body?
First, the sheriff’s office is in regular ongoing communication with the Groves.
Second, if there was any question, a sheriff would pick up the phone and call Rick or one of the “elders” (I have to assume they’re on the sheriff’s speed-dial now) or one of the published phone numbers, or drive over to one of the houses or R & R Mercantile or the sawmill, to see Catherine and “rule out” any concern.
I’m more concerned about people the sheriff doesn’t know about that may be drawn to the group. Runaways, foster kids near 18 with nowhere to go, people whose families don’t know where they are or have no families, nothing left behind.
Are they safe? Probably, but we don’t know, do we?
Well in truth, they aren’t in great communication with the Groves but they would only say they could not rule it out. I presume because without forensic proof one can not rule out anything. The CCSO did not think it was Catherine. The Groves only wished to rule out it was not….since she has not been seen or heard from.
OTHER ARTICLES BY LAMAR HANKINS:
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/lamar-w-hankins-slipping-creationism.html
http://smmercury.com/2010/03/08/freethought-san-marcos-christians-nationwide-demand-government-support-for-their-religion/
http://smmercury.com/2010/03/15/freethought-san-marcos-changing-american%E2%80%99s-distrust-of-evolution/
And your point?
MORE ARTICLES BY LAMAR HANKINS:
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/lamar-w-hankins-satire-and-abortion.html
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/lamar-w-hankins-womens-freedom-and.html
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/lamar-w-hankins-praising-jesus-at-hays.html
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/lamar-w-hankins-ted-cruzs-opposition-to.html
AND you listed these for what reason, Mr.David?
Um, and what exactly is the problem with those articles Mr. David?
I’m an ex-fundie Christian (now atheist), and even I can commiserate with the Groves. What you and the COW is doing to this family is ATROCIOUS!!!
I’m looking forward to the day I see these COW leaders in court trying to defend the MURDER of baby Faith Pursley. We’ll see then how “manly” these boys of Texas are. I don’t even care what the Groves think of me and my current beliefs, I stand by them 100%!
Dear Texan/Ex-Fundie Christian, Were you a born-again Christian, or did you mentally ascent to faith in Jesus Christ? Love in Christ, Moses.
That’s correct, because you are Human. And have feelings. Thank you.
Good for you Texan/ex-Fundie Christian!!! I am of a different religion than the Grove family too, and I support them 100%!!!
Great llinks to some excellent writing and diligent research. But you missed some of Mr. Hankins’s best pieces. I won’t insert links since this is, in fact, his blog.
Ah. What is she, a 10-year-old? Normal healthy adults rarely agree with their parents on all matters, or even their peers, co-workers, bosses, spouses. You find common ground. In healthy dynamics, there’s a shared motivation and mutual willingness to meet somewhere in the middle. We temper our opinions and modify expectations based on feedback received from others.
‘If you disagree with us, we will punish you.’ Emotional hostage-taking. Yes, we learn this early on as children on the playground. And it’s never a level playing field. One party is always more motivated and committed; wants it more than the other. One side has less to lose. What has come to be known as ‘bullying’. This is why America doesn’t negotiate with terrorists. It’s a no-win game crafted to manipulate.
But check this out – what we know from psychology of warfare and strategic positioning, is that there is always a motivation. The other guy wants something just as much. If not more. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in your face in the first place.
Dear Texan/Ex-Fundie Christian, Were you a born-again Christian, or did you mentally ascent to faith in Jesus Christ? Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Original Guest, Healthy dynamics would increase the chances of an open a dialogue between Catherine’s parents and her. I pray that this striving to prove the right as wrong will cease. Many of us including Catherine would like to see them united in the peace of Christ. Love in Christ, Moses.
Quite right. I couldn’t agree more. In fact, healthy dynamics guarantees a relationship between parents and adult children.
So loosen up on the reins. This isn’t sharia law. American women come and go as they please without supervision; own cell phones; drive cars; have their own places, jobs, bank accounts. And relationships with others, peace in Christ notwithstanding.
Quit meddling.
Dear Original Guest, We just hosted a family from the Church of Wells who came here to visit the husband’s family in Wisconsin, and later the wife’s family on their return back through Dallas. By God’s grace, their families received them with grace, and they had fruitful visits. Love in Christ, Moses.
Wonderful. He got to be a house guest in Minnesota of a man from India he’s known since January.
But was he allowed to enjoy the multiple generations of old Wisconsin family that is his right, by heritage and by birth? Was he allowed to bring his new wife and son into the family fold, that she could see he has people and land he belongs to that she can share in? Did you travel with them or did they get to go without you?
Dear Original Guest, They traveled by themselves, just like the many church members who travel by themselves to their families, and returned back to their church family after their visit. Love in Christ, Moses.
Mr. David,
In answer to your question I was a born-again Christian.
The family visits that I’ve heard about are how the adult children that are visiting their families tell them how ungodly they are and that they are going to hell if they do not change their ways. The adult children consciences may be slightly relieved because they AT LEAST went to see their parents.
Dear Just Wondering, During Jesus’ time, there was a lawyer (who might be similar to the writer of this blog), who asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life (Luke 10), and Jesus responded with the two greatest commandments, and tells the parable of the Good Samaritan in the context of knowing what it means to truly love one’s neighbor. In this parable, the hypocritical priest and the Levite looked at the half-dead man, and passed by on the other side, ignoring the true condition of the man in need. Sadly, many Christians are ignoring the stripped, naked, backslidden condition of people, and going about their daily business, professing to care, but behaving as the hypocritical priest and the Levite. The Good Samaritan on the other hand, recognized the true condition of the injured and naked man, and cared for him. He did not assume that all was well with the half-dead man. The condition has become so despicable today, that any kind of righteous judgment of a person’s spiritual condition is concluded as self-righteous pride. If one’s family members are in shambles, professing to know Christ, but living a life of sin, how can one keep silent? Is hypocrisy the norm? Is it wrong to warn them of the danger of their condition? The consciences are seared to such a degree that, not only do people hate and not truly love, but condemn also the one who DOES love, and use righteous judgment, warning the false christian, or the backslidden Christian of the danger of facing Christ on the day of judgment. May the Lord grant wisdom for people to see right from wrong, and depart from the error of their ways, before it is too late! Love in Christ, Moses.
He wasn’t “a lawyer” in the sense of contemporary attorneys, the comparison you’re using. He was a rabbi or rabbinical scholar, a professional teacher and knowledgeable man.
Actually, no, Jesus responded by asking him what he thought: “What is written in the Law, how do you read it?” It was the scholar who said ‘love thy neighbor’.
Jesus told him he had answered correctly and should do it.
Well, no. It was the answer to the question, ” Who is my neighbor?” So then Jesus asked the guy who he thought the “neighbor” would be.
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Jesus was telling him to “love” (admire, respect, value, hold in high esteem) the guy who does the right thing; who shows mercy, kindness and compassion.
It goes on. Jesus goes the home of two women. Mary is absorbed with listening to his lecture. Martha fusses around and complains that Mary isn’t helping her get stuff done.
40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”
41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Martha was distracted with the business and chores and details of hosting Jesus and getting it right. And upset that the other person wasn’t working at all. Jesus said it wasn’t necessary.
Is it possible that you are Martha?
Dear Original Guest, Thank you for bringing the discussion centered on the Word of God. The Greek word used in the Luke 10 passage is “nomikos,” pertaining to the one who is learned in the law. The two passages are distinct in that the Mary/Martha incident happened in a different location after they went, and entered into a village (verse 38). The first incident is interposed into a passage describing the triumphal ministry of Jesus Christ through the 70 commissioned men sent to several cities (“woe unto you, Chorazin”, “woe unto you, Bethsaida” and “thou Capernaum which are exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down to hell”) came back with the report that the devils are subject unto them. Concerning these commissioned men of God, Jesus said, “He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.” It is in the context of this triumphal ministry concerning the kingdom of heaven, that the lawyer tempts Jesus with a question. Jesus knew what was in his heart, and drew out the answer concerning the greatest commandments, and tells him to “go and do thou likewise.” Jesus was holding him accountable to the very standards the lawyer was supposed to stand for, exposing his hypocrisy to everyone of all ages! What about you, my friend? Are you despising Jesus for despising the people of God in the Church of Wells, and the work of God to subject demons to naught in the lives of many, in whom sin has been destroyed and conquered in the Great Name of Jesus Christ, and continues to do among the rebellious among them? Concerning the second incident concerning Martha and Mary, Jesus is pointing out that it is a blessed thing to be in the presence of Jesus Christ, savoring every moment in subjection to Him, at His feet. You asked the question whether I am Martha. The reality of the situation is that I am not serving Christ enough like Martha, and I need to be more like Martha with Mary’s, attitude of being at the feet of Jesus Christ, which is a more blessed thing! What about you? “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few”~Luke 10:2m. Love in Christ, Moses.
You misquoted the bible, Moses.
Dear Original Guest, Which way did I misquote the Bible? Please explain.
Love in Christ, Moses.
I misspoke myself. As did you. You didn’t misquote, as it were. You paraphrased wrong. What you said is not correct. Jesus did not “respond with the two greatest commandments.” See above.
I meant what I said and said it in simple clear language. Those particular passages in the bible are not particularly deep or difficult to comprehend.
I misspoke myself. As have you. You didn’t misquote, as it were. You incorrectly paraphrased the scripture of Luke 10. See above. I expressed myself clearly and in clear language.
These pieces of scripture are not particularly confusing or deep and don’t require a bunch of mental gymnastics. Meaning is apparent on the face of it.
How do you explain what happened to Anna T.’s cousin when she saw Anna at a relative’s wedding? It was as if Anna wasn’t allowed to be alone with her without Rick supervising. See the comment by “lostfamilytocult” at the end of the Texas Monthly article, Sinners in the Hands. Currently it’s the very last comment (but added 2 months ago).
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/is-the-church-of-wells-a-cult/page/0/8
How is that justified
Dear Van, My wife and I were blessed to meet and spend time with Anna on many occasions. We met her on several occasions when Rick was with her, and also when Rick was not with her. Rick works very hard to take care of his family, training the younger men and preaching. Contrary to the experience of Anna’s cousin, we find Anna to be full of joy with the love of Christ, smiling frequently and working very hard taking care of her family. You can see Christ reflecting from Anna, and we are blessed to know her. Love in Christ, Moses.
And again. No real answer. Just propaganda. Anna is not happy. She very much desires contact with her family. Yet Rick decides when that happens….and that is not often. Anna will not show you this Moses, you are a man the father in law of the leader. It would be like confiding in the bosses family. You know it would get back to them and then you would be punished. You really need to take a more objective view of things and stop looking a them for face value. Anna would never show you her true feelings….for she would be punished for them.
Moses quote~ “Are you despising Jesus for despising the people of God in the Church of Wells, and the work of God to subject demons to naught in the lives of many, in whom sin has been destroyed and conquered in the Great Name of Jesus Christ, and continues to do among the rebellious among them? ” This sentence really alarms me and stuck out like a sore thumb! “among the rebellious among them”
What happens to the ‘rebellious’? Do they get locked into sheds without water and food? Do they get shunned and cut off from all church sanctioned activities and fellowship?
Do they get beat with scripture and told they are going to hell? If they requested to be taken to a shelter, would the leadership just toss them to the highway or would they have the decency to drive them to a place of safety.
Dear Just Wondering, Spiritual warfare is done with weapons of a spiritual nature (Ephesians 6), in much prayer, and with the belt of Truth, helmet of salvation, breastplate of (Christ’s) righteousness, shield of faith and Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God, not in the physical realm as you are imagining. Love in Christ, Moses.
There were warnings to you about Preethie going to Wells…Andy and Patty Grove had NO CLUE and maybe the same with for many more ‘trapped’.
I doubt if Catherine sought out ‘safety among counselors’ before CoW showed up at her door to SECRETLY remove her from all she knew and loved. Yes, there is spiritual warfare! There is a horrid dark side and you are in the middle of it, spouting shouting spitting twisting God’s Holy Word. He is the Avenger of this great insult.
Dear Just Wondering, There is no twisting of God’s Word, but unrighteous evil reports of righteous young people pursuing God’s ways unlike the heathen, or backslidded Christians of today. We were told that “they are drugging people,” “stockpiling weapons,” “intentionally starving people, “making plans to flee the country,” “locking people in sheds,” “believe in works based salvation, sinless perfection” etc.etc., all of which were simply not true! Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Moses, a name which you are NOT entitled to….You are a liar or a fool or both. I know for a FACT that the Church of Wells has had or may still have weapons in their possession (they may have been sold but I don’t believe them) , I know for a fact that the “preachers” perform hard pressure interrogation techniques on all recruits until they can “break them”….until the recruit understands “God will kill them”. This interrogation can go on for weeks depending on how “weak” the recruit is or how long they can resist. I know for a FACT that the Church of Wells uses fasting and sleep deprivation along with constant interrogation and condemnation until they can break the will of their recruit!! I know for a fact that the woman and children are silenced “Shameface” and have no say regarding their existence. I know for a FACT the Church of Wells preaches sinless perfection, I know for a FACT the Church of Wells members think their elders have “supernatural gifts that keep them perfect”. Moses… You need to open your eyes. You are blinded by evil and are becoming a helping hand to Satan himself. Look closer Moses…you are being fooled or you are a liar.
Dear Iknowthetruth, Can you identify yourself and substantiate your accusations? You can hear the sermons from the church, in particular, the lastest one titled, “Friendship with God – The cure for Despondency” to get a more accurate picture of their doctrine. Love in Christ, Moses
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/our-sermons.html
Dear Iknowthetruth, Further clarification about “sinless perfection” in the following link. Love in Christ, Moses.
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/perfect-love.html
Moses, he doesn’t need to identify himself to you but I do hope he/she will contact Mr. Hankins. He will keep everything in confidence. I can assure you as well many others. We need these facts Iknowthetruth. And Moses…stop referring us to their sermons. We have listened to enough. You can listen of course but those of us who do see them for what they are…frankly it seems like an infomercial and like you are trying to convince yourself of the truth….Iknow…please I encourage you to call or email Lamar….we need your help.
If it’s not “in the physical realm,” then why is everything about this group’s faith predicated on the physical realm? Why the emphasis on all things “carnal”? Why the clothing and behaviour?
Also, the deprivation, the isolation, the cruelty, the starvation, the lack of regular sleep, the shunning, the ANGER-THESE ARE THINGS THAT OCCUR IS THE PHYSICAL REALM EACH AND EVERY DAY.
Lamar Hankins on Rag Radio:
https://www.theragblog.com/metro-podcast-thorne-dreyer-lamar-hankins-discusses-a-major-scandal-at-the-church-of-wells-cult-in-east-texas/
Moses
I see you have returned to do the work of the COW. It is shameful and disheartening to see how you too have been deceived and now participate in the spreading and support of this groups doctrine. I know you must be in pain having lost your child as I did. However, I think you are in darkness and are being deceived or allowing yourself to be deceived. What father wouldn’t do so as to maintain communication and contact with his daughter. I know you profess to be a religious person and are capable of providing scripture just like any other bible reading Christian, but you aren’t showing any wisdom or discernment. Your son in law and his college friends pervert the scriptures to their own end and they are doing it right in front of you. I have witnessed it first hand. You stood there and said nothing. Your eyes were glazed over just like them because what they were preaching was not in context. It was without love, mercy or charity. This church is using doctrine and scriptures to manipulate and control people. If you can’t see it, it is only because you are blinded by the relationship “they” have allowed you to create with them. Don’t you see they are using you? You have become their mouthpiece. Any of these scriptures could easily be applied and should be considered
Ecclesiastes 10:14, Proverbs 6:19; James 3:13-18; 1Timothy 4:1
I mourn for your loss as a fellow parent
Dear Reconciled,
Thanks for sharing these verses, which apply so perfectly to those railing unrighteously against the people of God in the Church of Wells, through lies and slander!
I thought I lost my daughter when I believed the slander against these precious brothers and sisters in Christ, but not only did I not lose my daughter, but I have gained many sons and daughters, and grandchildren in Christ. Praise be to His Great Name, which is above every other name, to whom every knee will bow. May He vindicate His chosen, precious saints!
Love in Christ, Moses.
Well done. You got ’em! You smacked them all right upside the head. Nice work. Yes, we understand – you get their absent sons and daughters and even their grandbabies!
I never stop being taken aback that those who proclaim their Christian goodness the loudest, are always the meanest and stingiest. Yep, you got ’em where it hurts, Moses.
Reporting one’s first-hand experience is not “slander.” A person’s impressions and perspectives do not equate to “slander.” Communicating observations, even speculation, is neither “slander” nor gossip.
I’m fatigued with Sean Morris’s word, Moses. The repetitive use of it doesn’t even suit you. You are a grown-up with a job. It smacks of whiny plebeian adolescence.
Instead, try opprobrium (harsh criticism or censure) or obloquy (strong public criticism). The words critical and criticism work just fine. விமர்சிக்க. குற்றங்காண். விமர்சனம் செய்.
That makes more sense and is inarguably true. Everyone will easily admit to criticizing this group’s doctrine and leaders.
But now I wonder: between Moses David and Sean Morris, which one is in a greater position of power? I think Moses may have found his own church, after all.
Moses, It seems you have no compassion for the grieving parents here. I hope when you are bouncing those grandchildren on your lap you can tell them about their grandparents who miss them dearly. I don’t think you understand the pain we feel after pouring our lives into our children, being there for them when they fell and made unwise decisions. Comforting them, providing for them, training them up in the ways of the Lord (although they have been “brainwashed” into thinking that we trained them up in a false gospel), only to have them turn from us. By stating that you have a new family, you throw it in the face of all of us who have lost our children and grandchildren. I have no other words to say. I am speechless!
You know when you post from the same computer it keeps your info….so one must wonder why sometimes you are moses and sometimes anonomyous. Surely it isn’t because you have so many computers you keep logging on from different ones….right… Oh I know…must be your good son in law in Wells working on your behalf since he doesn’t have a paying job he has to work for you to keep that check coming….save the bs….you are both educated men…your son in law is a lazy, spoiled cult leader. Strip away your definition of what he is…he is nothing more than an unemployed con man who has conned you out of thousands. And you are to proud to admit it.
Mr. David is not better than someone who joins ISSIS or any other terrorist group. COW IS a terrorist group. They terrorize families into believing that they might never see their loved ones again or worse, much, much worse. You, Mr. David, are NOTHING more than a mouthpiece with money who is very easy to manipulate. If anything dangerous was about to go down, you would be the type that would stand there with your thumb up your tush. Maybe this is the first time you have felt “important” in your entire life and it’s like a drug, very hard to walk away from. You are paying an extremely high price for your irrational loyalty to these crazy cultists. Sadly, I can see the way this story is going to play out in the end and you and your family will lose everything just for your fifteen minutes of “fame” and importance. How sad that the seemingly lovely family that you built will end up being very hard to put back together once things hit the fan. And they WILL hit the fan soon. Like Reconciled, I, too, mourn for the loss of a fellow parent. SO very sad.
It will be interesting to see how Moses jumps in on the next article from Mr Hankins… and then the next…because I believe Mr. Hankins will not let this rest. Our mighty God raises up people and apparently something is happening with the expertise and professional research that Mr Hankins is doing. He doesn’t ‘twist and shout’ the Scriptures. Christ might reveal Himself to Mr Hankins as he is researching and writing about this sordid mess cloaked in the name of Church of Wells. We shall see how deep this ‘well’ goes!
He will not…..I assure you. I would venture to say we are covered for the next year and of course opportunities keep presenting themselves.
From above:
“Lawyer” = expert in Torah, an expert in the Jewish Mosaic and rabbinical law. Some rabbis were acknowledged experts in the Law, and they studied and interpreted the Law, taught their own disciples, argued with other rabbis, and wrote. We would probably call these rabbis “professors.” Sometimes the NT refers to them as “teachers of the law.” Mishnah.
They were Jewish. In the culture and typical convention for that time. And still continues in contemporary times. It’s impossible to interpret actions and intention when you’re not familiar with it. Some anthropological study would be enlightening for you. Learn about rabbinical scholars/Torah/Talmud tradition from the source.
How dramatic! That’s one way to characterize it; your personal interpretation of a bible verse. “To everyone of all ages”? I have no idea how you got there or what that means.
I don’t know what this means either. I think it’s just strange and not rational. Seems to contain contradictory ideas. A bizarre spin attributing personal feelings about the Texas Boys to Jesus? It’s transparent that it attempts to prop up the mythology that this group is victim of Christian persecution.
Pretty certain you confused the passage in Luke with Matthew 22:35-40.
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, ‘Master, which is the great commandment in the law’? Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets’.
It’s obvious you made a mistake with the scriptures there. But that’s okay, I don’t expect you to admit it. You seem to lack the humility to acknowledge your own error.
Dear Original Guest, I explained before that Jesus responded by bringing out the two greatest commandments from the mouth of the lawyer, who was supposed to be protector of the law. Jesus then shared the parable of the Good Samaritan in response to the lawyer’s reply to expose the hypocrisy of the lawyer to every one who was around, and to everyone else of all time by recording this in the Scripture. Details aside, Christ is highlighting the importance of loving a person enough to see them in their injured, naked, half-dead condition, which is even more important when we consider a person’s spiritual state. Christ is calling people to love others enough to care for their perishing, naked souls by clothing them with the righteous robe of Christ. Just as treating an open wound hurts at the time of treatment, righteous judgment hurts at the time of its application, but in the end there is healing, and the preserving of life. Love in Christ, Moses.
The good Samaritan parable has nothing to do with “exposing” the “hypocrisy” of a rabbi who asked the question “Who is my neighbor?” and neither does the passage of referenced scripture.
We know nothing about the unnamed rabbi who asked the question and whether or not he was hypocritical.
The lesson is about compassion and mercy.
Moses, why did you say there are 35 men when there are 36? Did one leave? Excommunicated?
Dear Original Guest, I do not remember where I said 35 men. I do not know the exact numbers, so please excuse me if I relayed wrong information. I do know that Abraham had 318 trained men, when he went to war to rescue his nephew Lot from evil kings (Genesis 20). Love in Christ, Moses.
Whatever you like, Moses.
The men leading this group have said many times that they could be corrected. Clearly, they/you cannot be.
I would like to post this in case someone is reading and may have doubts about their situation. If you reach out for help and step away for awhile ~ you will have a clearer mind to reflect on those doubts and sift / search for truth.
http://www.mycrisiscenter.com/
24-HR Confidential Hotline 1-800-232-8519
Lori Roth hotline For help call: 206-984-6859.
churchofwellsexitplan@hushmail.com
The hushmail.com email address isn’t legit. It’s an expired account.
I understand that the hushmail.com account is no longer good. There are any number of local people especially Pastors that would help you. There is always help – but not from the people that are trapped like yourself. Certainly the ‘Trappers’ don’t want you to think that you have a mind and that ….
1 Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. ~ NOT Sean, Ryan, Jake or whoever tries to take that place.
Thank you for that information, JW. The Crisis Center will not prevent them from returning to the Church of Wells; it’s just a place to get some breathing room without Sean, Jacob and Ryan influencing their every move.
Moses, you never used to be this outspoken and judgmental. What happened to the “Moses” who was so involved with AWANA (you were even a commander!)? You never once stated any opposition to its theology. What changed? Are you implying you were mistaken, but now you’ve been corrected? If so, how do you know you’re right NOW?
Dear Van, I was blessed to learn God’s Word in Awana. Many of the verses the children recited to me took root and proved to be of great value in my spiritual growth. Sadly, the gospel is not presented as a sober, life or death matter by the methods used in Awana, even though the Word of God is life-giving. The program can be enriched greatly by taking only the truly regenerated, born-again Christians as leaders instead of asking for volunteers, many of whom are not even saved. May God bless the children in Awana to have leaders leaders who will teach them the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom, and teach the children what Jesus said, “if you love me, keep my commandments” It is also sad that the doctrine of “unconditional eternal security (free-grace theology)” is at the core of their teaching methods. Eternal security is promised to everyone who abides in Jesus Christ and His Word without falling away. God blessed my family to be faithful in teaching the Word of God to the children for 18 years. May God bless the children we have taught and loved, to stand firm in faith until the end. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses, you ultimately portray Almighty God to be a ‘whimp’.
.
Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Moses keep on reading in this chapter. Verse 39 states “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition” meaning a true believer in Christ would not become an apostate. Said from the mouth of Spurgeon himself.
Dear Truth Seeker, Keep reading on, and you will see the type of faith which saves, the hallmark of faith, chapter 11. Comfort yourself with verse 39 and disregard everything else around it! Love in Christ, Moses.
He has allowed himself to be deceived with false doctrine. He had the Spirit prompting him to question COW in the beginning and then I’m guessing once he travelled down to Wells and met them, his emotions and their false appearances and actions etc. was enough to deceive him more and doubt his strong Godly faith into thinking that he was in sin. They have a way of deceiving people and getting them to believe that they aren’t really saved because they still sin and of course being in a small commune of only your own kind, you have more of a chance to live a sin less life.
So sad that he has given in to his deception.
Those who join in think they have a chance to live a more ‘sin less’ life when in reality the opposite becomes true. They are living in bondage and the devil is having a ‘hay-day’ over this situation! God is still in control ~ and yes, I do not understand, but I believe it.
Yea I totally agree, they think they are living a close to sinless life but you are right, in reality it is opposite. Yes God is in control!
More info re: CHURCH OF WELLS
8/11/14 THE RAG BLOG (“Child Murder in Texas”):
https://www.theragblog.com/lamar-w-hankins-report-child-murder-in-texas/
9/12/14 RAG RADIO: https://archive.org/details/RagRadio2014-09-12-LamarWHankins
9/24/14 PODCAST:
https://www.theragblog.com/metro-podcast-thorne-dreyer-lamar-hankins-discusses-a-major-scandal-at-the-church-of-wells-cult-in-east-texas/
TEXAS MONTHLY (“Sinners in the Hands”; February 2014):
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/is-the-church-of-wells-a-cult
TEXAS MONTHLY (“The Younger Years of the Church Elders”; 3/6/14):
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/younger-years-church-elders/page/0/2
CHURCH OF WELLS FORUM (This is a place for learning and gathering information about the group):
http://faith.boardhost.com/index.php
BOYCOTT CHARITY ENTERPRISES INC. WELLS, TEXAS – FACEBOOK PAGE
https://www.facebook.com/TakeWellsBack
PRAY FOR CATHERINE GROVE – FACEBOOK PAGE
https://www.facebook.com/prayforcatherinegrove
PRAYER FOR THE CHURCH OF WELLS – FACEBOOK PAGE
https://www.facebook.com/PrayersAndLoveForTheChurchOfWells
Dear Eagle, Some more information about the Church of Wells:
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/doctrine.html
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/sermons.html
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/photo-album.html
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/videos.html
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/testimonies.html
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/poetry.html
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/music.html
To balance out the links from above:
check out this one to help discern the truth!
http://www.thechurchofwells.org/ it is a real eye opener! Don’t be fooled!
MORE FOR DISCERNMENT THAT Church of Wells is heretical….
http://www.thechurchofwells.org/
MORE FOR DISCERNMENT THAT Church of Wells is heretical….
http://www.thechurchofwells.org/
whoops – sorry about the repeats!
Moses stated: “Dear Guest, We think that we are entitled to certain privileges in life including “family moments, Christmas dinners, birthdays and vacations, births of new babies and summer barbecues.” Well I guess this is going to change this year for Moses right? CoW believes if you celebrate Christmas you will die. (see The Case Against Xmas) I assume this would include Christmas dinner. Also most of CoW does not celebrate their birthday. Just saying.
Mr. David, did your family celebrate Christmas dinner? Are you dead? Maybe you had a lovely meal with all of the trimmings but you just neglected calling it Christmas dinner? I really do want to know! And what about all of the previous Christmas’ that you and your family celebrated? How come those didn’t end up placing you six-feet under? Do you understand what “magical thinking” is?
Please stop talking to Moses David
He is a hypocrite
ON one hand he says abortion is wrong and on the other hand he does not condemn letting a baby die?